Card upgrades suck

[Sexually Aladdin]

So, this is mostly about "game feel" and since the game seems heavily based on slay the spire, I'm going to be using that as a point of comparison.

So my issue here is that card upgrades in this game really suck. Often times I'll end a run not really caring about upgrading anything because all of the upgrades give such a small increase in power that they're almost irrelevant. And sometimes they actually are completely irrelevant. I feel like a lot of upgrades miss the point of the card the upgrade is applying to.

If you compare this to slay the spire, every time you reach an upgrade point, you get excited. Even basic card upgrades are just awesome. I'm just not getting that sweet sweet dopamine with this system. If the upgrades and game balance needs to be preserved, just make the base cards worse so that the upgrades can shine a little more. I mean the fact that some cards increase in cost when you upgrade them is just stupid. Make the base card cost more and reduce the cost when the upgrade is applied so that the player can feel like they are actually gaining strength instead of grinding through a mire of miserable sidegrades.

Honestly the same can be said about artifacts, the bonuses they provide are so esoteric or minimal to be irrelevant. Why does everything have to be a teeny-tiny increase that makes almost no difference until the end of the game or a "do x so many times" to get this effect? Almost all of my runs are these amorphous blobs that don't really seem to have much character until a fight or two before the end boss. Meanwhile in slay the spire you could start shaping your run within the first couple of fights. I think part of that is how reliant the game is on RNG, since you basically have to build your run with what the game decides to give you, with very few opportunities to draft or choose from multiple card options.

I guess what I'm saying is that the game feels incredibly over-balanced, but also heavily RNG reliant.

[DukeOfLight]

No its not based on Slay the Spire, this is a strategic card game, opposed to what Slay the Spire is.
Actually upgrades are the trick to win battles.
OK, you don't like Vault of the Void, don't worry this is legit...what can i say, play more of Vauld see if you like it, if don't go back to Slay the Spire.
U cant say that this its not good because its not Slay the Spire.
For example i like both, right now i play mostly Vault.

[BaconX]

I don't know what game you're playing but my upgrades and artifacts matters.

This is not StS, as much as I love that game, you need to block that out and stop trying to compare the two.

[Samseng Yik]

Upgrade cards in VOTV do matters, however the upgrade effect are are not as strong as STS.
So, what you feel may not be entirely wrong.
Still, for me the card upgrade is "better than nothing", if it is something you will use often. Upgrade it can be "better than before", although not much as "game changer" like STS and Monster Train

[Sexually Aladdin]

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

Upgrade cards in VOTV do matters, however the upgrade effect are are not as strong as STS.
So, what you feel may not be entirely wrong.
Still, for me the card upgrade is "better than nothing", if it is something you will use often. Upgrade it can be "better than before", although not much as "game changer" like STS and Monster Train

This is my point, upgrading your cards doesn't elicit the sense of enjoyment that it really should. I feel like the other comments decided to jump on the "not like other games train" and ignored the whole gist of my comment. I love card games and the devs clearly put a lot of work and passion into this project that I definitely can appreciate. My issue is that they've tuned certain systems so finely that they've removed the sense of enjoyment you should have from using them.

[Sexually Aladdin]

Again to reiterate, I'm not saying they should just make the upgraded cards more powerful, if that's the balance they really want, then they should make the base cards weaker so that the upgrade system can really shine.

[Polylog]

I prefer this system over the spire one. Here, cards do not fundamentally change when I upgrade them. I like that. Stuff is mostly useable out of the gate and gets stronger with upgrades. Doesn't jump from meh to broken.

[Mechalibur]

An important thing to consider with VotV is that rage is a percentage increase, meaning any changes to the base damage of the card are affected by rage as well. Consider something like Yin-Yang going from 12 to 16 damage. It's only 4, but at 100 rage, that means you're actually getting 8 damage out of the upgrade, or 16 if you're able to get its double trigger.

Instead of looking at the flat modifier, you might want to consider any damage increases as just % increases to the total damage. 4 extra damage sounds minor by itself, but 33% extra damage comes off as more significant (and about in line with StS).

There are also plenty of upgrades that are more significant than just an increase to damage. Some buffs double in power once they're upgraded or gain significant ease of use. Daughter especially has a lot of cards that get neat extra bonuses when upgraded, like Diversion allowing the void stone to be triggered on discard (which is extremely powerful if you know what you're doing).

[Sexually Aladdin]

Originally posted by Mechalibur:

(which is extremely powerful if you know what you're doing).

I feel like this is a pretty huge contributor to my frustration. Successful runs at impossible 5-8 already take me roughly 2-3 hours to complete. I started a run today to give the second class a bit more playtime since I only had one run completed with her, but then stopped two hours later when I had only reached the early zones of the second area. When you add that incredible time commitment to the esoteric and slow-incremental nature of power increases, the game just feels like a slog.

Even something like, rage, which I understand what you're saying, but the problem is that it's very difficult to plan around. I've done rage builds, and they are enjoyable when everything lines up, but they are also heavily based on RNG factors. Because rage only lasts for a turn, a lot of of factors need to line up in order to properly capitalize on it. Add that to the fact that artifacts insist on having completely nonsensical and difficult to track triggers, and you get a situation where you just spend the entire battle hoping to survive until the stars align and suddenly you can 1-shot everything.

And this is a slight aside but every time I play I am consistently underwhelmed and even actively upset by the artifacts on offer. The one that just allows you to get an upgrade point, which as I've been saying is almost worthless, and the one that gives you an upgrade point IF you manage to visit TWO shrines feel like a complete slap in the face. At this point I feel like I'd be happier if artifacts didn't exist in the game at all so I could stop thinking about how fun and useful they are in other games.

[ShinryuEXE]

Originally posted by Sexually Aladdin:

Even something like, rage, which I understand what you're saying, but the problem is that it's very difficult to plan around. I've done rage builds, and they are enjoyable when everything lines up, but they are also heavily based on RNG factors. Because rage only lasts for a turn, a lot of of factors need to line up in order to properly capitalize on it. Add that to the fact that artifacts insist on having completely nonsensical and difficult to track triggers, and you get a situation where you just spend the entire battle hoping to survive until the stars align and suddenly you can 1-shot everything.

And this is a slight aside but every time I play I am consistently underwhelmed and even actively upset by the artifacts on offer. The one that just allows you to get an upgrade point, which as I've been saying is almost worthless, and the one that gives you an upgrade point IF you manage to visit TWO shrines feel like a complete slap in the face. At this point I feel like I'd be happier if artifacts didn't exist in the game at all so I could stop thinking about how fun and useful they are in other games.

Couple notes:

1. There are lots of ways to gain rage consistently across turns, so you're not just waiting for things to line up for one big turn of rage, but to get 75-150% rage every turn and pump out a couple heavily enhanced attacks for consistent damage.

2. Since you don't naturally discard your hand each turn, you can easily hold onto whatever key card you need to line things up. I.e. if you have something that creates Delay Rage you could just keep that high damage card in your hand til next turn to capitalize upon it rather than play it out this turn and hope you draw something suitable for next turn.

3. Green stones and Blue stones heavily help with consistency. Green means you can start with it every battle, but also means it'll be drawn first whenever you go through the full deck and it gets reshuffled. So if you have a combo piece with a Green stone on it, you can know reliably exactly when you'll next draw it. Add to that Blue stoned cards or anything else that draws and you can work through your deck fast and get back to whatever key cards you're wanting.

4. I don't know which artifact you're talking about that just gives an upgrade point, unless you're talking about the one from the grey chests, which is just meant to be an alternative to the common artifacts that the chest offers in case neither of them appeals to you. Since the chest is essentially free power, it only offers 'Common' artifacts, which are meant to be helpful but not heavily impactful. I would not judge all artifacts by the power of 'Common' level artifacts.

If you're talking about 'Flask of Purple Juice', the one that gives an upgrade point each time you win a fight with zero damage, well, it's far more than just a single upgrade point if you're playing well and makes it easier to snowball and keep getting perfects as you upgrade more and more of your deck.

As for the the 'visit Shrines for upgrade points':
First, it's not 'visit two shrines to get *an* upgrade point', it's 'get an upgrade point at each of the first two shrines you visit'
Second, again, it's given from the Matron of Memories at the beginning of the run and is meant to be helpful, but not game changing. Compare it to the other Matron of Memory options like 'Get a random void stone' and it seems like approximately the same level of power.

All that aside, what other artifacts do you hate? Like, specifically.

[rodriguezCIA]

Originally posted by Polylog:

I prefer this system over the spire one. Here, cards do not fundamentally change when I upgrade them. I like that. Stuff is mostly useable out of the gate and gets stronger with upgrades. Doesn't jump from meh to broken.

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