Why is this game supposed to be so good?

[AlphaMike]

I played like 30 min and closed it, first time I bought a game thinking it was good only to be greatly dissapointed 10 min into the game...
At least it was only 1.50€...

[Temmie]

I never found the early levels, or the single player, to be that entertaining personally. I think the replayability and the enjoyment really comes in the later levels in multiplayer, or when you have a nice group to run with. There are also some really great custom maps and there are creative ways to play with personal challenges. If you give it another try I'd be happy to show you the ropes or get you into some of the later levels earlier (since you only played 10 minutes I assume you only were on the very simple early missions).

[TheGZeus]

"What makes this game so good?"
"Other people."

Know what else is fun with other people? Playing cards. Solitaire is boring. If you don't find solitaire boring, you need to find more interesting activities regardless.
Throwing rocks at other rocks is fun with other people. Throwing rocks into a river is fun with other people.
STANDING AROUND is fun with other people.

I really don't get multiplayer... When I interact with people, I prefer to be able to have a conversation or something.

Sorry. I just deleted the thread in which I ranted about my personal issues with this game, including how overwhelmingly multiplayer-focused it is.

My nephew plays CoD, Battlefield et al, and when talking about it he spends most of the time describing either how bugs/griefers/hackers ruined things, or using exploits for fun.
Watched him play once. It was just like when I was playing Quake back in the day. Try to do something, die in seconds. Die in slightly more seconds... die in slightly fewer seconds...
So he was doing it in an outdoor setting with fancy graphics. Same results.

I dunno...

[Vahnkiljoy]

Played the game with a friend, we were both wondering when the fun was supposed to happen, we got to the bank heist and finished it and just closed the game at that point.

[EvathCebor]

I like how gamers always says "it was better before, when the games were not all the same, not fast food games, blah blah blah". And when a different game (but very easy to understand) needs just one hour or two to really start and show it's potential, they are outnumbered to give up after 15 minuts maximum.

It is a VERY fun game, one of the best cooperative games I have. You need to accustome yourself to it and try to meet some resistance ingame before judging it. If you give up all your games after 15 minuts, you will miss so many great things. I hope you don't do the same with movies, TV shows or books.

Maybe you'll dislike it at the end, every tastes are in the nature but, seriously, at least give it a shot. You didn't.

It's like giving up a game in the middle of the tutorial or a book just at the first blank page after the cover. Really.

[TheGZeus]

Originally posted by EvathCebor:

I like how gamers always says "it was better before, when the games were not all the same, not fast food games, blah blah blah". And when a different game (but very easy to understand) needs just one hour or two to really start and show it's potential, they are outnumbered to give up after 15 minuts maximum.

It is a VERY fun game, one of the best cooperative games I have. You need to accustome yourself to it and try to meet some resistance ingame before judging it. If you give up all your games after 15 minuts, you will miss so many great things. I hope you don't do the same with movies, TV shows or books.

Maybe you'll dislike it at the end, every tastes are in the nature but, seriously, at least give it a shot. You didn't.

It's like giving up a game in the middle of the tutorial or a book just at the first blank page after the cover. Really.

Does the game really _need_ to be boring at first?
Does it even _need_ to be designed for co-op?

Actually, I don't see what your first sentence has to do with the rest of your post.
Not sure what you were getting at at all with that, really... "...fast food games"? "...games were not all the same..." who says that? Why would anyone say that? No one said that here.

And if the first 15min of a game are crap YEAH. THAT'S GONNA PISS PEOPLE OFF.

[Vahnkiljoy]

Ever hear of the expression First impressions are the most important Evath? Well this game doesn't do a very good job with it's own sadly.

[EvathCebor]

Originally posted by gzeusmants:

Does the game really _need_ to be boring at first

Well, from my long gaming exprience, almost every game that is new to you and that is not the copy/paste from I game you already know, except very cinematics one (or sports/racing games), are boring at first ? Deus Ex is boring at first. Red Orchestra is boring at first. Total War is boring at first. Fallout is boring at first. Mass Effect is boring at first. Mirror's Edge is boring at first. Mount & Blade is boring at first. The Dig is boring at first. Dark Souls is boring at first. Age of Empires is boring at first. Kingdom Hearts is boring at first. Binary Domain, Aquaria, Jedi Academy, Crusader Kings, KOTOR, PayDay, Alpha Protocol, Chains of Satinav, they are so numerous. 95/100 of the games I played are boring at first, and mostly for much more than 15 minuts. And I'm not even talking about the tutorials. What's surprising to you ? I mean, who judge and stop a game after 15 minuts ? Except if it's your first game and you don't want to like it, I don't see how it is possible.

Yes, this game has to be boring at first. Because it has the mecanics it has, and you need to accustomate yourself to it first. It seems not very lisible, and you don't get it at the first time. It's very confuse, and in the same time it's very easy, it's normal, the first missions are tutorials. Don't tell me this is the first time in you're life you're not excited by a tutorial.

I'm sorry but when you discover new mecanics, your brain needs to understand and accustomate to it. This is why tutorials and easy first missions exists for almost every game. It'd be stupid to start with big things.

Originally posted by gzeusmants:

Does it even _need_ to be designed for co-op?

Does Deus Ex even need to be designed for single player ? Does FIFA even need to be designed as a sport game ? Of course no, they both could have been hentai scripted game about the Israelian conflict with an awesome cliffhanger at the end but hey, they were designed as they are ! Sure there is no need to, they even could have been hamburgers instead videogames if the devs decided to cook instead of making games. You bought a coop game, presented as a coop game, that has the reputation of a coop game, advised for coop players. I'm sorry for you when you order meat at the restaurant and says once you're served : "hey, i'm vegetarian, does this beaf has to be meat ?".

Originally posted by gzeusmants:

Actually, I don't see what your first sentence has to do with the rest of your post.
Not sure what you were getting at at all with that, really... "...fast food games"? "...games were not all the same..." who says that? Why would anyone say that? No one said that here.

No, no one said that there but come on, it's not your first forum right ? You read it everywhere everyday since a decade, that's why I'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ surprised (at least) when I see people, after 15 minuts including the title screen and the readings, saying "hey I don't like it". Usually this is the kind of behaviours gamers vomite about and are always crusading against. Maybe you'll dislike it but hey, right now it's as stupid as if you said that just after taking two minuts watching the cover. Give it a real shot, at least. Or don't, after all it's not my problem, I bought it, gived it a real shot, I didn't stoped after 3 minuts as I already experienced many other beginnings of games and finally I enjoyed it an hour later. If you don't want to do so well, it's bad for you, not for me.

Originally posted by gzeusmants:

And if the first 15min of a game are crap YEAH. THAT'S GONNA PISS PEOPLE OFF.

Not going to p1ss anyone off, I don't think anywone was very excited at the beginning, including me. If you tell me after 20 minuts of Mirror's Edge "OMG BEST GAME I EVER PLAYED I'M SO HAPPY", I'll tell you you have a serious problem, could say the same thing at the title screen I wouldn't notice any difference.

Originally posted by Vahnkiljoy:

Ever hear of the expression First impressions are the most important Evath? Well this game doesn't do a very good job with it's own sadly.

Ever hear of the expression “only an idiot doesn't change his mind" ? What's funny with expressions is, you use one to tell me it's going to be sunny tomorrow, I'll use another one that says it'll be rainy as hell.

[TheGZeus]

Excuse my sloppy quote nesting. As I say in the post, it's been like 10 years since I used a forum.

Originally posted by gzeusmants:

Does the game really _need_ to be boring at first

Well, from my long gaming exprience,

How long? 25 years? That long? We can stand here and measure our 'experience' all day, but what matters is if you can make a salient point. Don't pull the "I know soooo much" card without knowing that you're top gun in the room. You can never know if you're top gun in the room. o_o

almost every game that is new to you and that is not the copy/paste from I game you already know, except very cinematics one (or sports/racing games), are boring at first ? Deus Ex is boring at first.[/quote/]
*blink blink*
So, the games you like are boring at first. I'm gonna look around the room and list some games and whether or not they're boring at first.
Chrono Trigger... Yeah. (my fav game, but yeah. nothing happens for a while)
Shin Megami Tensei IV... Yeah. Indeed.
Kid Icarus: Uprising... NOPE.
Kid Chameleon... NOPE.
Super Mario WHATEVER (including the origina 3 games which were all different and new to the world) NOPE.
Fire Emlem: Awakening: Not really. Gets to the action pretty quick.
Etrian Oddyssy (1 2 3 4...)... Kinda yes, Kinda no. If you just skip the intro nonsense you're right into the game.
DooM... Stort game. Start shooting.
Quake... See above.
Blood... Ditto
The Elder Scrolls: Whatever... ZZZZZZzzzzzz Oh, it's done.

The games that are often Copy-pasted from nowadays often didn't have introductions nor did they have

Originally posted by gzeusmants:

Does it even _need_ to be designed for co-op?

Does Deus Ex even need to be designed for single player ?

Well, yeah. It's a story-based game, and the story is about one character. If they made it about two characters, then it would make quite a bit of sense for it to be co-op, but a reasonable single-player mode would be a nice option in that case. To extend the analogy a bit more: bots weren't good enough to make up for the second player back then.

Does FIFA even need to be designed as a sport game ?

o_O That's so unrelated as to be near strawman in nature. That's a genre. Not a mode of interaction. FIFA has a single-player mode despite being a game that simulates many people playing at once. Why? Because many people would like to play video games without dealing with other people sometimes.
I play games when I want to unwind and not deal with the stress inherent in social interaction. Also why I read books or watch movies... I just wanna get away from it all.

My point was that there are so many bloody games out now that are co-op only and the level design is so craptacular that any attempt to play single player is worthless.
Again, doing basically _nothing_ with other people is fun, so many games are just taking the easy way out. "4 basic classes. Co-Op Multiplayer. Done"

You bought a coop game, presented as a coop game, that has the reputation of a coop game,

I didn't buy anything. It came with a bundle.
I'm not asking for a refund, I'm stating my opinion. I have an opinion. I'm allowed to post it here. I posted it here.
Yay.
Did my not enjoying a game and what it represense make you feel bad, or something?

Actually, I don't see what your first sentence has to do with the rest of your post.
Not sure what you were getting at at all with that, really... "...fast food games"? "...games were not all the same..." who says that? Why would anyone say that? No one said that here.

No, no one said that there but come on, it's not your first forum right ?

no, but it's my only forum (well, Steamcommunity in general, I mean) in hmmm 10 years. They're generally cesspools of one-upsmanship based on how long a given user has been posting somehow making their opiinion matter more etc. Steamcommunity seems fairly well moderated, actually.

You read it everywhere everyday since a decade,

Read what everywhere? I literally _did not understand that first line_ What do you mean by "fast food games"? I don't get what that would mean? Cheap and bad? Tasty but you regret it? ...Oily O_O??

that's why I'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ surprised (at least) when I see people, after 15 minuts including the title screen and the readings,

Maybe game designers should _start putting more game at the start of their games_ instead of putting a bunch of crap that no one wants. There are sooo many mods for Skyrim dedicated to skipping the intro sequence... because it's boring and tedious.

Originally posted by gzeusmants:

And if the first 15min of a game are crap YEAH. THAT'S GONNA PISS PEOPLE OFF.

Not going to p1ss anyone off, I don't think anywone was very excited at the beginning, including me.

Umm. People _are_ pissed off. This is a fact. People are complaining. People do complain about this.
You like something? Fine. Not everyone has to share your opinion.
Boring is _by definition_ a bad thing unless you want to be put to sleep. This is why I have an Enya album. It's boring. Sometimes I need it to go to sleep.
I don't want games I get to put me to sleep.

Originally posted by Vahnkiljoy:

Ever hear of the expression First impressions are the most important Evath? Well this game doesn't do a very good job with it's own sadly.

Ever hear of the expression “only an idiot doesn't change his mind" ? What's funny with expressions is, you use one to tell me it's going to be sunny tomorrow, I'll use another one that says it'll be rainy as hell. [/quote]
No one's heard that expression. It's not an expression in English. It's also an incomplete thought. If you mean something like "only an idiot _never_ changes" his mind, I think there are similar sayings, but... You need a _good reason_ to change your mind.

The first 15min of a game should make you want to play more, not be something to trudge through to get to "the good part".

It's a good idea for games to be good the whole time.

Starting bad is bad. because BAD IS BAD. BORING IS BORING.
BORING IS NOT GOOD NOT GOOD IS BAD IT"S A BAD IDEA TO BE BORING.
Ok? Yeah. I would have shouted that, because you're being ridiculous.
You're basically arguing that either A: it doesn't matter if games start out bad, because sometimes they get better (wtf) or B: it's a good thing they start out boring because you like it (WAT).

We just want games to be good. Good the whoooole time. At the beginning, and all the way to the end.

If you walk up to someone and just STARE at their face for a few minutes then decided to try to start nice conversation... NOT GONNA WORK.
First impressions _do_ matter.

[EvathCebor]

When I say "Well, from my long time gaming experience, I experienced that" I don't mean I'm more experienced than you, I'm not comparing our bananas. It's all the contrary, you're here so I suppose you're experienced too, and I want you to realize that don't having fun the 15 first minuts is perfectly normal. It's rare to be imerged in a book for the 15 first minuts, it doesn't usually stop you. It's rare to have fun with a new concept of a video game that is not a cinematic or a simplist one at the beginning. It's normal, your brain is not accustomed to the new mechanics and you can't except anything more than a tutorial. Imagine Mirror's Edge without the tutorial ? It would be worse ! So what, does it means the game sucks ? Well, maybe for you I don't know, but not because of the beginning. Sometimes, a hard beginning (and the Monaco's one is far from hard and painful) is necessary. Just guy, realize you passed more time arguing than playing the game. Me, I'm happy, I'm practicing my english here. I really hope you're doing the same.

Well, yeah. It's a story-based game, and the story is about one character.

Does they need to make a story-based game ? No. If you ask "does they need to make this kind of game", it's never the case, they never need to. Ok, you can ask some precise game-design questions this way, like "does they need to remove death from Prey or Prince of Persia 2008", but please, you can't ask "does they need to make a coop game ?". Obviously they don't. You say sport game is a genre, but here, the coop is a genre too. It's the skeleton of the game, not one of these mecanics.

Of course Mario Bros is fun from the very beginning. Of course Candy Crush and Tetris are fun the first seconds. Well you can't blame a game that has more complicated mecanics to take a little more time. We're not talking about a 10 hours tutorial, it's not a MMORPG or something, it's just a game that need you to accustome yourself a little. If you can't handle this, I don't even understand how you dare play Fire Emblem (please, the first minuts - even hour - of a Fire Emblem are not fun, and I'm not talking only about Awakening. And that's not a problem, that's necessary, imagine a game like fire emblem beginning with real missions, without tutorial for your first playing. OMG ?).

My point was that there are so many bloody games out now that are co-op only and the level design is so craptacular that any attempt to play single player is worthless.
Again, doing basically _nothing_ with other people is fun, so many games are just taking the easy way out. "4 basic classes. Co-Op Multiplayer. Done"

Your point is you seem to vomite coop, I get it. Well don't blame a coop game for being a coop game. And I don't think we can say the devs of Monaco took the easy way here, they really tried something new. And if you look at the games released each year, coop is far from killing singleplayer and story-focused games.

You like something? Fine. Not everyone has to share your opinion.

I don't want you to share my opinion. I don't want anyone to. If someone that played the game say "I dislike it", I'll say "ok". But someone that didn't and is stil stuck at the tutorial, I'm sorry, you're not sharing an opinion. "Hey I dislike this person." "Since how long do you know her ?" "I just shaked her hand". Well, to have an opinion, you need to build it. Here, you're complaining about something that didn't stop you for other games, it's your problem, not mine. Bundle or not, you bought a decent game, you don't want to give a shot and prefer arguing on forums, ok, everyone take pleasure with its owns as he wants. You got a game, you use it to argue instead of playing it. I mean, I buy CD but I can use it as a frisbee. I'm ok with that.

No one's heard that expression. It's not an expression in English

My bad. it's one in my language. I meant that expression is really not an argument, as there is always 5 to contradict each one. And yes, the first impression matter....only while the beginning. When you discover a new food that doesn't looks good, once it's in your mouth and you realize how it's good, the first impression is gone forever. The last impression matter the more. Yes, it's better to have both good, but some concepts don't allow that, as you need to accustome yourself.

It's a good idea for games to be good the whole time.

Of course, but sometimes it's impossible. Some experiences are uncompatible with instant pleasure. It makes sense, obviously, when you say a beginning should make you want to play more. But you can't expect the same instant pleasure from an ArmA and a Call of Duty. You can't expect the same instant pleasure from a Mario Kart and an Endless Space. Monaco just needs you to accustomate a little before starting the big missions. It's not that huge and painful. I could understand if you were complaining about a Victoria game, but hey, please, it's just Monaco, not Demon's Souls.

I should say again "give it a shot", as you did with your other games but it seems you don't want to, I feel you just want to hate this game cuz it's a coop one. Well, thanks for your time and have a great day. I hope the beginning of the day will be good, otherwise you could instant go back to bed haha

[shak59]

Fun game! sneaky. Would be even cooler if you got to see a plan of the buildings first so you can plan everything!

[TheGZeus]

I give up, EvathCebor. I give up trying to get you to understand anything. So much of what you are saying is such nonsense...

I refuse to argue with a brick wall.