Maybe in next year's DLC?

[Pappy]

I really love both Everspace and it’s sequel Everspace 2 and yet I still feel like there’s plenty of meat left on the bone from these 2 games. The biggest problem that I have with Everspace 2 is that once you have gone through the 40 hours or so it requires to finish the campaign and hit max level, there just isn’t much left to do. Grinding out the 18 different legendaries gets old pretty quickly. What’s really needed is a reason to continue playing and this is where I think Rockfish made the biggest mistake with Everspace 2. Let me explain.

What strikes me the most about Everspace 2 is its resemblance to one of my most beloved and most played games, World of Warcraft. Although Rockfish calls it a looter/shooter, in my opinion it’s more closely related to the MMORPG genre. Most of your time in the game is focused on fully realizing the potential of whichever of the 9 ship types you choose to go through the game with and that’s where I believe that Rockfish fell short in its design of the game.

Every ship type in Everspace 2 is essentially its own class and if they would have stuck to the same tried and true formula that most MMORPG’s take, I think Everspace 2 would have been a much bigger success than it ultimately is. What keeps people coming back to a game like World of Warcraft is its nearly endless possibilities of taking every single class in the game to its logical conclusion. In WoW, every single class is a chance to start over from scratch and piece by piece build the perfect toon. Unfortunately we don’t get to do that in Everspace 2 because of one huge flaw which is that the games progression is based around player level rather than around ship level.

Early on in the development of Everspace 2, I pushed hard to get Rockfish to change the game such that every new ship started at level 1 and progressed from there rather than your character starting at level 1 and progressing from there. If I had my wish, when you reached max level with 1 ship, you could then choose another ship and take that ship from level 1 to max level. This would have resulted in a game with much more replayability and longevity than it currently has. Here's a link if you're interested in that thread.

Granted that this would have meant much more content to prevent doing the same campaign and side missions with each new ship type, so I do understand their attempt to keep the scope small enough for this small development team, however now that the game is released, if the game would have been designed as I suggested from the ground up they could have focused now on creating that additional content that would have been needed for multiple play throughs with the game with different classes. WoW didn’t start out with all the content it has now, it started out smaller and grew over time. This could have happened with Everspace 2 as well in my opinion, but I fear now that’s a missed opportunity.

Don’t get me wrong, I applaud what Rockfish has created. The game is really good and I do understand that creating a game like WoW was out of the reach of this small development team and yet I still feel that their vision could have been a bit larger with long term goals and would have resulted in a better game in the long run. Perhaps my vision can still be a reality with next years DLC although maybe that's a bit too much to expect. Perhaps Everspace 3?

That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Pappy]

Rithrin eredeti hozzászólása:

OK, so I thought this was a really interesting topic and wanted to take some time to articulate my thoughts.

Thank you. I think so too, but it's not getting much love. :)

Rithrin eredeti hozzászólása:

I think the idea has merit, but my issue with it is not actually lack of content in the terms of missions, jobs, locations, etc, but actually with what I would call the core issue of ES2 progression which also happens to be one of the reasons replaying the campaign is unappealing: There isn't enough difference between the gameplay of the different ships.

I don't really disagree with any of what you said, but I do think it's a matter of scale. Yes I agree the WoW is a more complex game in a lot of ways, but that doesn't mean that all of the same concepts don't apply. They do apply, just to a lesser degree. No, I don't think that ES2 is ever going to be WoW like and it doesn't have to be. You can take the concepts from WoW and apply them to ES2 and they will work to enhance the game. No one will ever mistake ES2 for a WoW clone but the concepts are still there, just to a lesser degree.

You're probably right that maybe a better analogy is to Diablo. You have 5 classes and you can play each one from level 1 to max level. The game doesn't really change much which class you use and certainly you don't need to be in a group to enjoy the game and yet it's still going to expand the number of choices dramatically.

Rithrin eredeti hozzászólása:

Some of this is, I think, by necessity. As an FPS single player mostly story-line experience, you can't really risk throwing situations at the player that they cannot overcome with whatever their current setup happens to be. In games like WoW or Diablo 2, those are also heavily party-focused games. In Diablo 2, you might play a poison Necro and run into a monster or boss that's immune to poison, but then even in single player you'll have a mercenary that can take care of it, or you go online and party up with a Barb and a Sorc to overcome the obstacle.

I don't agree here. I don't think it really matters that ES2 is an FPS single player mostly story-line experience, it can still benefit from all these things. Diablo certainly does and it's not really that much different from ES2. I'm not looking to turn ES2 into a play the rest of your life game, I'm simply trying to extend it's very short play time in my humble opinion. Maybe all it does is double the length of time you play the game, but that would be huge in my opinion. It would be well worth the effort to do that.

Rithrin eredeti hozzászólása:

In order to do so, I think you'd need some combination of the below:

1) Something like a perk tree for every ship class with wildly game altering abilities. Imagine if the Gunship had, as one of the perk options, an ability that read: "Beam weapons deal 90% less damage. Hitting an enemy with a beam weapon for 2 consecutive seconds causes all other equipped primary weapons to fire at that enemy for 5 seconds." Okay, a bit sloppy, but you get my point. Suddenly, you can have an entirely different core gameplay experience that can be built around compared to not just other ships, but also other builds of the same ship.

2) Longer, more technical combat. Perhaps add more types of debuffs, resistances, make physical vs energy damage matter more. Also imagine if the player was told what kind of enemies they would face before a mission ("You're going up against the blade gang, their ships are fast, agile, and have teleporters to jump right on your tail. Expect close quarters combat and high damage, short range weapons!") so the player could then go and switch ships/equipment that they think would suit that particular engagement.

Absolutely. Those are terrific ideas that could easily be put into ES2. The design of the game already allows for all these things, they would just need to implement them. There's some "tweaks" that would need to be made, but it's not a redesign of the game.

Rithrin eredeti hozzászólása:

3) More companion oriented gameplay. It would be okay to design encounters such that there are enemies certain player builds can't deal with or struggle with if they could have wingmen to help them out, and vice versa.

Unfortunately this on the other hand is out of the question. This is not a multiplayer game. It's designed from the ground up to be a single player game. Even adding wingmen to the game isn't going to change that in my opinion. Elek already drops in from time to time to assist you, I don't think having others do the same thing really matters. But I don't think that's necessary either, the other suggestions above would more than suffice.

Rithrin eredeti hozzászólása:

Anyway, that was a mouthful, but I really think this is more of an "ES3 thing" rather than something that could be integrated into the current game.

Yeah, it might be, but it also might be more along the lines of another expansion? I don't think you need to reinvent the game again for another Everspace, just simply adjust the goalposts of what you want ES2 to be. They had a particular vision and they created that and they are not done yet, but the "scope" was limited because they only had a certain amount of time and money to put into it, but it doesn't have to stay that way. Seems like the game has been successful enough to warrant expanding upon the original design now.

[Rithrin]

Pappy eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't really disagree with any of what you said, but I do think it's a matter of scale. Yes I agree the WoW is a more complex game in a lot of ways, but that doesn't mean that all of the same concepts don't apply. They do apply, just to a lesser degree. No, I don't think that ES2 is ever going to be WoW like and it doesn't have to be. You can take the concepts from WoW and apply them to ES2 and they will work to enhance the game. No one will ever mistake ES2 for a WoW clone but the concepts are still there, just to a lesser degree.

Yeah, I agree with that. It's just something that needs to be added to ES2 in order to get there.

Pappy eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't agree here. I don't think it really matters that ES2 is an FPS single player mostly story-line experience, it can still benefit from all these things. Diablo certainly does and it's not really that much different from ES2. I'm not looking to turn ES2 into a play the rest of your life game, I'm simply trying to extend it's very short play time in my humble opinion. Maybe all it does is double the length of time you play the game, but that would be huge in my opinion. It would be well worth the effort to do that.

I should probably rephrase that. ES2's core game has a structure. That includes elements such as FPS twitchy gameplay, arcade style flight controls, heavily scripted and railroaded story missions, semi-persistent world (i.e., not instanced - drop an item somewhere and it'll be there when you come back, shop inventory is tracked, so on), save states system, and other elements. These are trying to come together to give "the ES2 player experience".

Diablo 2, to contrast, has a different set of elements such as instanced worlds, randomly generated content, highly technical systems based combat, the fact that Town Portal exists, and others to create "the D2 player experience". In D2, part of the core experience is that you focus on your build, how it interacts with all the different game systems, it's strengths and weakness, knowing the composition of enemies you'll face in Act I vs Act 2 vs Nightmare variants, etc, and understanding how to navigate all that. D2's design has it being no big deal if the player dies, or if they come across some monster that's too powerful. You just join a new lobby and regenerate all the enemies and dungeons, or more simply, you just run past the enemy you can't defeat, or if you are about to die, just pop TP and heal in town and come back to finish the fight. So the potential for the player to be faced against an enemy or obstacle they can't kill works harmoniously with the design and is merely a small bump in the road for the player.

In ES2, the potential for the player to be faced against an enemy or obstacle they can't defeat stands in anti-synergy with the rest of the design. ES2's systems focus on giving the player a smooth experience through heavily scripted, dialogue filled missions, often with objectives like "destroy all Bloodstar ships in the area" where you are actively prevented from leaving the area by either being locked in or jumping out being disabled. Being deep in a mission, stuck in an area, and finding out that you actually just can't complete the mission with your loadout is a brick wall for the player experience, not just a bump.

So it's not just that ES2 is a single-player game, it's the kind of single player experience they want it to provide. Not that the devs can't flesh it out more in this direction, they're just much more constrained in how they can go about it.

Pappy eredeti hozzászólása:

Absolutely. Those are terrific ideas that could easily be put into ES2. The design of the game already allows for all these things, they would just need to implement them. There's some "tweaks" that would need to be made, but it's not a redesign of the game.

For sure. I think a lot of the current legendary item abilities could (should?) be implemented as some kind of ship class-specific abilities, and it would really flesh out each ship's role. Something like Visions of Decay would be perfect as a perk choice for the Stinger ship rather than a general purpose item that can go on any ship, or Pango's Pride as a Scout perk, Nexus Heart as a Striker perk, etc, would really make the ships feel like character classes.

Then we could focus on a new set of legendary items.

Pappy eredeti hozzászólása:

Unfortunately this on the other hand is out of the question. This is not a multiplayer game. It's designed from the ground up to be a single player game. Even adding wingmen to the game isn't going to change that in my opinion. Elek already drops in from time to time to assist you, I don't think having others do the same thing really matters. But I don't think that's necessary either, the other suggestions above would more than suffice.

True, this would be hardest to implement. I think it could work if there were a few companions that you could elect to be wingmen and there were rudimentary commands or preset AI behavior rulesets. Like Elek is currently an agile skirmisher with weapons packing a decent punch. It would be nice if we could either have him partner with us permanently or maybe call him in through use of a consumable-like item for a duration, and he would come in and specifically go after ships that are tailing close behind the player. So maybe I could fly a big slow Bomber, and if there were enemies that were really good at saying on your tail, I could call in Elek to come take care of them instead of just outright losing the engagement.

And then maybe there are other companions, like you could choose Officer Shaw after befriending him and when calling him in, he flies a tanky shield ship that actively draws enemy fire or stays near you and launches some anti-missile drones to help protect you. That sort of thing.

Pappy eredeti hozzászólása:

Yeah, it might be, but it also might be more along the lines of another expansion? I don't think you need to reinvent the game again for another Everspace, just simply adjust the goalposts of what you want ES2 to be. They had a particular vision and they created that and they are not done yet, but the "scope" was limited because they only had a certain amount of time and money to put into it, but it doesn't have to stay that way. Seems like the game has been successful enough to warrant expanding upon the original design now.

You know, you're right, it does depend on the scale of whatever DLC/expansion they come out with. I guess I'm just used to games nowadays typically getting very minor updates. There's definitely room for additional scope in ES2's design. Either way I'm still looking forward to it, whatever they end up including.

[Pappy]

Rithrin eredeti hozzászólása:

In ES2, the potential for the player to be faced against an enemy or obstacle they can't defeat stands in anti-synergy with the rest of the design. ES2's systems focus on giving the player a smooth experience through heavily scripted, dialogue filled missions, often with objectives like "destroy all Bloodstar ships in the area" where you are actively prevented from leaving the area by either being locked in or jumping out being disabled. Being deep in a mission, stuck in an area, and finding out that you actually just can't complete the mission with your loadout is a brick wall for the player experience, not just a bump.

This is only true while doing missions and that's not the part of the game that I'm focusing on with the changes I'm suggesting. I'm focusing on the end game after you have completed the campaign. When you are playing a more open world type of game where you just go and do whatever you want very similar to the end game of Diablo.

When you get to that point of the game it's exactly like Diablo where you can simply go wherever you want and bypass anything you want. You have much of the same freedoms that you have in Diablo. You can raise and lower the difficulty to your liking. You can reload a saved game at any point. You can use spatial bypasses to get around easily. You can play "instanced" HRA's or Ancient Rifts. You can craft/upgrade or buy gear/ships to meet any requirements you have. Any Diablo player would instantly recognize the similarities between the games at that point.

I'm not suggesting these changes so that you can go through the campaign again with a different ship, just the opposite. I'm suggesting these changes so that you can play a more open world game just with a different ship. Start over at level 1 with a new ship, but with no campaign to complete, a fully upgraded crafting system already in place, enough credits to purchase whichever ship upgrades you want or the means to get the credits within easy reach with a few trade runs, the ability to find and mine whatever resources you need. In essence adventure mode of Diablo 3. That's the target for my changes, the true open world game once you have finished the campaign.

Or here's another idea. How about a new season where you start over at level 1 but you don't have to do the campaign? The whole system is free to explore. All the spatial bypasses are in place. Pure open world where maybe you introduce some changes to the ancient rifts with new legendaries to obtain, etc. Perhaps the bloodstar haven taken over and are the dominant faction in every system. Wouldn't that be a reason to come back to the game and play again? Rinse and repeat every 3 to 6 months with a different seasonal theme. The future of video games isn't DLC's or expansions it's seasons. Diablo 3 and Destiny 2 have convinced me of that.

[Rithrin]

Pappy eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm not suggesting these changes so that you can go through the campaign again with a different ship, just the opposite. I'm suggesting these changes so that you can play a more open world game just with a different ship. Start over at level 1 with a new ship, but with no campaign to complete, a fully upgraded crafting system already in place, enough credits to purchase whichever ship upgrades you want or the means to get the credits within easy reach with a few trade runs, the ability to find and mine whatever resources you need. In essence adventure mode of Diablo 3. That's the target for my changes, the true open world game once you have finished the campaign.

Or here's another idea. How about a new season where you start over at level 1 but you don't have to do the campaign? The whole system is free to explore. All the spatial bypasses are in place. Pure open world where maybe you introduce some changes to the ancient rifts with new legendaries to obtain, etc. Perhaps the bloodstar haven taken over and are the dominant faction in every system. Wouldn't that be a reason to come back to the game and play again? Rinse and repeat every 3 to 6 months with a different seasonal theme. The future of video games isn't DLC's or expansions it's seasons. Diablo 3 and Destiny 2 have convinced me of that.

I could see something like that working. Never really been someone who follows 'seasons' in action RPGs, but something to vary up the types of enemies you face and something new either inside HRAs/Rifts or as alternatives to would be very welcome. Perhaps with modifications to weapons and other items in order to vary up equipment combos.

[Hybarf Tics]

Seasons are usually rinse & repeat, I never buy seasons mainly because there rarely is anything added to the map. If there's nothing new to explore, what's the point?

To stay interested in a game it needs to grow with Dlc's or full expansions.

[Rithrin]

Hybarf Tics eredeti hozzászólása:

Seasons are usually rinse & repeat, I never buy seasons mainly because there rarely is anything added to the map. If there's nothing new to explore, what's the point?

To stay interested in a game it needs to grow with Dlc's or full expansions.

I think the OP suggestion is less about the exploration-oriented player and more towards the build-focused player.

I'm definitely more in the exploration camp as well, but new healthy mixes of enemies might still be a good draw. I still install and play an FPS called Ziggurat 2 every now and then despite having completed the game a million times because the core gameplay is fun and it varies up enemy combinations and bonuses each playthrough. ES2 could be like that, too.

[Hybarf Tics]

Mine is Division 2 & looking forward to;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdtGwT5T0g&t=3s .