Vindicator, the only one to lose its main trait?

[Magnamuz]

I wanted to point out one aspect of the Vindicator that I noticed, at least in comparison with the other heavies. Is it the only one who can lose its main trait?

The Gunship, no matter how tough the fight is, does not lose its extra primary mounts. The Bomber does not lose its ability to heal the hull or use secondaries with energy. But the Vindicator, as we've seen in some devstreams, begins to lose its drones and ends up being a common ship that meets its maker for not being able to resummon its drones in a more consistent way (without the ULT which disappear later).

I love being a summoner in games and you can usually heal them, buff them and even resummon them. But in this case there are none of those possibilities, and on top of that, you have to KILL an enemy so that they throw a wreckage to resummon just ONE drone (imagine a boss fight).

I suppose that some possibility could be that they heal while you do damage, or that the ultimate revives all the drones permanently (with half HP maybe?) and not just for the duration of the ultimate. I don't know, I can't think of something that can be compared to the other heavies, I don't have to resummon the 2 extra turrets of the Gunship or find a wreckage to regain the ability to heal the hull of the Bomber...

I suppose that, as in all forums, the assertive defenders may say that it is perfect as it is, but I'm sure there are some others who think something similar and I would like to leave the question anyway :)

[Hazzy]

I made a summoner suggestion a while back before the Vindicator was added here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/5/3105773861188555331/

One of the ideas I had was to go the same route as the bomber. Just like the bomber has an energy bar dedicated to secondary ammunition, the vindicator could have an “energy” bar dedicated to summoning drones. But in this case, that “energy” bar doesn’t regenerate constantly and rather depends on the amount of drones alive.

If a drone dies, it’s remains goes back into the energy bar ready to be deployed again (perhaps after a certain amount of time so you don’t just summon instantaneously after one dies).

I do agree that there should be some other way to summon/craft a drone without having to rely on an enemy dropping a wreckage.

As for healing, while it’s still limited atm and will most likely have more options in the future, there is the Nano Transmitter device with the distribution mode to heal allies. Plus one of the ship’s passive that lets drones heal 1% of their max HP each second.

[Johnny Hazard]

1 option was for using exclusive drone devices (summon combat drone/ armor drone/shield drone etc...) But the devs already said they won't go that way.

There's always the option of the energy bar that slowly grows (x seconds) while there's drone empty slots to fill, and thus generating 1 drone each x seconds. While all drones are active, the bar could be repairing them (1 drone repaired each x seconds)
This x variable could change with vindicator level, expertise points, and even a special mod on the ship's energy core

[Magnamuz]

Originally posted by Johnny Hazard:

1 option was for using exclusive drone devices (summon combat drone/ armor drone/shield drone etc...) But the devs already said they won't go that way.

There's always the option of the energy bar that slowly grows (x seconds) while there's drone empty slots to fill, and thus generating 1 drone each x seconds. While all drones are active, the bar could be repairing them (1 drone repaired each x seconds)
This x variable could change with vindicator level, expertise points, and even a special mod on the ship's energy core

Seems that you and Hazzy share the same idea of an energy bar, and I think that in lack of a better option is not half bad, I'll take it a thousand times before it is now...

Another option, I insist, healing them by making damage. Or the ULT that revives them with a certain amount of HP but permanently.

[Johnny Hazard]

I still think the ideal config for the vindicator would be using devices, or even devices placed in weapon slots (weapon devices? XD) that would control and repair drones, and even be linked to different types of drones.
Ex:
drone Ai combat processor - exclusive weapon for vindicator - engages drones against the selected target when triggered. Drones will swarm the target and attack with increased ferocity.
drone repair modulator - exclusive vindicator secondary weapon - 1 charge, 10 seconds reload - repairs the target drone, x hit points per second until full hp.

One of the major flaws of drones is that they do not focus their attacks on target. They kind of stand there, look pretty, and shoot at whatever they want. They need some command options like: attack this target, cover me, retreat behind me, close combat mode, long range mode, etc...
Also, for the Vindicator to really shine, it needs a lot of different drone options.
-combat drones: with different weapons, from trace, beam, coil, shotgun, sniper, etc...
- shield drones.
- armor drones.
- webber drones.
- emp drones.
- corrosive drones that stick to a target and do progressive damage, or even funny weird drones that go around leaving a trail of caustic clouds.
- explosive drones. Yes, those that ping on proximity for a big badaboom.
- Cancel drones. Cancel culture is fun, no? How about a drone that sticks like a tick to the enemy, and just cancels his stuff? "Engines and weapons off, man!"

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Johnny Hazard:

One of the major flaws of drones is that they do not focus their attacks on target.

They do when you use the ULT and you can use the ULT quite a bit. Don't forget that your ULT is a toggle and you can toggle it on and off. When it's toggled on it slowly depletes and when it's empty it will turn off automatically but you can toggle it off yourself and save whatever energy hasn't been depleted. You have to wait for it to be fully charged again, but since it wasn't fully depleted, it doesn't take much time. Typically speaking you don't need to tell the drones to attack YOUR target all that often, just with certain mobs. So use your ult when you need to and kill YOUR target, takes seconds typically and then toggle your ULT off and it will be available to be used again fairly quickly. This is what I do anyway and I'm finding the drones to be extremely useful.

[Zeraph]

Originally posted by Pappy:

Don't forget that your ULT is a toggle and you can toggle it on and off.

WHAT????? It is?? Holy cow, it is huge then.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Zeraph:

Originally posted by Pappy:

Don't forget that your ULT is a toggle and you can toggle it on and off.

WHAT????? It is?? Holy cow, it is huge then.

It has to be fully charged to enable it, but you can turn it off before the energy depletes so that it will be ready to use again more quickly.

[Heldrick]

Originally posted by Johnny Hazard:

I still think the ideal config for the vindicator would be using devices, or even devices placed in weapon slots (weapon devices? XD) that would control and repair drones, and even be linked to different types of drones.
Ex:
drone Ai combat processor - exclusive weapon for vindicator - engages drones against the selected target when triggered. Drones will swarm the target and attack with increased ferocity.
drone repair modulator - exclusive vindicator secondary weapon - 1 charge, 10 seconds reload - repairs the target drone, x hit points per second until full hp.

One of the major flaws of drones is that they do not focus their attacks on target. They kind of stand there, look pretty, and shoot at whatever they want. They need some command options like: attack this target, cover me, retreat behind me, close combat mode, long range mode, etc...
Also, for the Vindicator to really shine, it needs a lot of different drone options.
-combat drones: with different weapons, from trace, beam, coil, shotgun, sniper, etc...
- shield drones.
- armor drones.
- webber drones.
- emp drones.
- corrosive drones that stick to a target and do progressive damage, or even funny weird drones that go around leaving a trail of caustic clouds.
- explosive drones. Yes, those that ping on proximity for a big badaboom.
- Cancel drones. Cancel culture is fun, no? How about a drone that sticks like a tick to the enemy, and just cancels his stuff? "Engines and weapons off, man!"

So basically, instead of making drones with special, make drones a secondary weapon, exclusive for vindicator. Or, rather, not exclusive, so you can fit it everywhere, but make vindicator handle it better than others, like how gunship uses the hell out of primary, and bomber unleashes full potential of launchers. That would be SO cool

[Magnamuz]

Just make drones a Consumable (1 extra slot for Vindicator):

1) Now there can be different tiers (ex: legendaries)
2) Now all classes can spawn 1 drone.
3) Vindicator can spawn at least 5 drones (more with passives).
4) Vindicator can spawn drones WITH ENERGY.

Problem solved

[Ignition]

Originally posted by Magnamuz:

Just make drones a Consumable (1 extra slot for Vindicator):

1) Now there can be different tiers (ex: legendaries)
2) Now all classes can spawn 1 drone.
3) Vindicator can spawn at least 5 drones (more with passives).
4) Vindicator can spawn drones WITH ENERGY.

Problem solved

+1

[Yes Indeed!]

While I'd be tickled to see a bit more drone variety and consumables seem like a decent way to implement that, I'm not sure of the practicality for the dev team to whip up 3+ new sets of models, sounds, and coded behaviors. I'd like to see it, but it also seems a bit of a big ask.

Addressing the problem of drone durability (and, by extension, Vindicator viability), I take issue with the economy of using wreckage to repair. Picking up wreckage with an empty drone slot builds a new drone with 100% HP, but picking up wreckage to repair a drone heals less than 50% of its HP. I believe that this amount should instead equal 100% of an intact drone's HP, and that total amount should be divided between all damaged drones based on their ratios of missing HP. This would alleviate the pressure to keep drones online and would bring the value of repairing in line with replacement construction.

[Magnamuz]

Well, today I went into a mission and in the first 10 seconds got a mine thrown into my face and got all my drones down. There were no wreckage, obviously, couldn't go to a station cause drones are not repaired there either, don't know why, so I got wrecked as a ship with no traits whatsoever.

The other ships don't lose their traits until dead, but Vindicator does, and quite easily...

Last stream from June 10, Erik LITERALLY says from a high risk area: "Explosive death is gonna be big trouble for our drones. That'll just pop them all", and chose another signal decoder... C'MON MAN!!

Please think of this and do something, I don't care if some random guy think it's fine the way it is, I don't need more proof than these two examples to know something has to change in the way drones are handled.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Magnamuz:

There were no wreckage, obviously, couldn't go to a station cause drones are not repaired there either, don't know why

You can find wreckage in debris fields which can be used to create drones.

[Magnamuz]

Originally posted by Pappy:

You can find wreckage in debris fields which can be used to create drones.

Yeah, just starting the mission, super convenient and fun... I just read "If someone steals your cellphone you can always buy another one", that's not the point for what's being laid down here. The devs rejecting a mission for the explosions is just too much for it not to be something to address for the Vindicator.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Magnamuz:

Originally posted by Pappy:

You can find wreckage in debris fields which can be used to create drones.

I just read "If someone steals your cellphone you can always buy another one", that's not the point for what's being laid down here.

If a person states "I can't own a phone because someone stole the one I had", then it's fair to point out to that person that they can buy another one. That doesn't suggest it negates the fact that their phone was stolen, however it does completely counter the argument that they can't own one if theirs was stolen.

The point is that you can create new drones or repair existing ones without having to kill anything to create the wreckage, therefore it's not necessary to be able to create or repair drones at bases or via energy which is what you have suggested. I'm simply pointing out the counter to your argument that you should be able to do so.

I wasn't suggesting anything at all about the relative difficulty that certain elements of an HRA might pose for Vindicators. As you have mentioned, the developers themselves have taken note of that and quite possibly will make changes.

I'd like to also point out that unequal does not necessarily mean unfair. Just because Vindicators can lose access to that which makes the class special does not mean this is unfair. I'd like to try to demonstrate this point with the so called band-aid lesson....

On the first day of school, a teacher asks her students who has ever scraped their elbow in the class. She lets one kid tell their story of how their elbow got hurt and then calls them up and puts a band-aid on their elbow.

Next, she asks who has ever bumped their head. She calls on one student to tell the story of the bumped head and then calls them to the front where she puts a band-aid on . . . their elbow.

Repeat for a scraped knee.

By this time, the kids are confused. She stops the lesson and has a conversation about how she gave everyone the "exact same thing in the exact same way, but it wasn't as helpful to all of them." That "fair does not mean everyone gets the same thing, fair means that everyone gets what they need to be successful."