I Felt Zero Actual Progression Until I Became Invincible at Level 15

[M.Hardcase]

I took some vacation days to unwind, and decided to revisit Everspace 2 from level 1 again a few weeks back.

I have to say, after going from level 1 to the level cap, the game needs serious work when it comes to progression and the feeling of player competency.

Rockfish, you have built a gorgeous and brilliant world, with a lot of interacting systems and layers of reward. However, the most notable layers of reward are not obvious on levelup. Instead, they are obvious on tiered breakpoints every 5 levels, and that doesn't feel particularly great.

Before you go live, I'd suggest implementing some kind of fun points and flavor at level up, over and above the skill points. Because the system you have built, in my opinion, does not feel rewarding in the least until it's broken wide open, and that shining moment of 'take that game' is not worth the 15 levels of slog to get there. Let alone the 10 of 'wait did I actually just break the game?' that come after it.

Would it truly kill the balance of the game to give people a +15% modifier to speed or handling per level, rather than having them crutch on spare parts and spam the X button until they find a cargo bay with the modifier on it?

Would it truly kill the balance of the game to say, let people purchase an extra hardpoint with say, 5 or so of these fun levelup points?

I ask this because at level 15 I became entirely invincible through a combination of powers I won't outline here.

I felt not one ounce of progression until that happened. I have felt not one bit of progression since. Every fight was effectively the same level of slog in practice as every other fight. Now they are pointless loot pinatas that play identically no matter how far above my own level they are. Sure, some were challenging, before level 15, some fights were easier, but there was never a point when I said, wow, that extra speed from that new engine component really was a difference maker. Or wow, that extra damage from that gun that I don't normally use, but now is my only viable option sure made combat more fun. That never once happened.

The only increase in combat prowess I experienced was my own skill improvement, and finding loot. Then breaking the game. And if that is going to be the situation, why include a visible level up mechanic at all.

It is incredibly frustrating to actively lose power on levelup. My experience with this run through the early access had me falling asleep at samey missions, and now it has me falling asleep because I am invulnerable.

Reaching invulnerability eventually is fun, and it's an awesome part of a normal progression system. The issue here, is that I reached it unexpectedly, at level 15, after slogging through 15 levels where the actual level increases made no appreciable difference to my performance outside unlocking different ships and stamping gear with bigger numbers, that didn't ever equate to notably more effectiveness in combat situations.

This should be a huge focus for your team. The game as it stands, has a reward system that pretends to be interesting but isn't in practice. People will figure this out, and they will figure it out before you launch.

[Psiotic™]

I've literally just started reading the community forum for this game (purchased it a couple years ago, just now got around to playing). I've taken the liberty to block all comms with this Pappy fellow. Every post I've read has this dude's easy-mode, devil's advocate, fanboi demeanor to it. He bashes everything that doesn't align with his own ego / opinion (etc).

I've been playing a few days now and have gotten to level 10.
I do feel the same sense in regards to leveling, however I don't have enough time under my belt (depth of game) to offer any concise feedback relative to "what to do". This post does a good job of outlining my sentiments (OP) thus far.

If it's of any consolation, I agree (for the most part) with the OP.
Some tweeking (as mentioned) would go a long way in early stages (leveling).
I think it would be far more inviting to new players, as well.


o7
Psiotic

[pUNK -in- drUBLIC]

Man... both of you pull me into memory lane hahah'
I remember when games had no save/load, you'd start with 3 lives and got more in easier levels but that was it. Enemies appeared exactly at the same spot every time and unless you did a hundred runs to learn patterns, you'd have to buy playthrough solutions from magazines ;)
But, this era is long gone now and today we are lucky to have devs read how we feel about their work and what can be improved here and there. Just like Johnny, this is the first Early Access game I'm "actively" participating in.
Also now, what we can do is talk about bugs and feeeelings. Bugs can be ironed out and the overall direction of a game can be slightly steered in one direction or another,

As I usually start first playthroughs in "normal" mode to give me the opportunity to play on a harder setting the second time around... "scaling" feels a bit off to me. I have no idea when this actually became a different "feel" because I had not played ES2 for almost... a year. But, it seems that the overall balancing of the game has changed (and not for the better until you overcome level 15). That's just my honest opinion ;)

[M.Hardcase]

If you are old enough to have been around for every mechanic, stop being so argumentative, modify your tone - It doesn't do anything good for the game's community, period.

And the fact is, I'm not asking for anything crazy or wild.

I'm not asking or suggesting anything out of line with games that came out 20-30 years ago, I remember, I was there.

I'm interested in the potential that everspace 2 has based on what it is already, to me it's a game that handles like a descent successor, with fleshed out RPG elements in a world as vast as freelancer, with a handcrafted feeling, when it comes to these things it's incredible.

I just don't think the RPG elements are as satisfying as the rest of the game, and I think if it launches in this state, people are going to think, what the F is wrong here, and they would be justified in doing so, I think it will lead to a game with a mediocre reception, taken against an astounded one.

They've already done something I considered impossible which is implement a reasonably satisfying 6 degrees of freedom control scheme, on the freespace, and standard descent scale, on a controller.

I just think the game needs some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ fun points.

I think fun points should give you an extra turret, which the stupid ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gunship would double.

I think fun points should mega level a warfare or standard device, giving you an explicit and fun primary button to push that isn't fire or ULT.

I think fun points should add something interesting to any ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ thing you can highlight on that character sheet, because that's how a 6-dof RPG yahoo sim from the 90s would have done it.

I think the fun points should do fun stuff I haven't even thought of, because right now, the levelups don't do anything, the things I actually have to think to obtain, give me what the levelups should, and the only meaningful progression is finding a gamebreaking ship in a hangar at random and leveling up gear.

Now be quiet old man, or suggest what the fun points should do, because the fun points are coming, or nobody is gonna play the game.

[Pappy]

Yeah, that's what I expected. I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt anyway Mr game community.

[Johnny Hazard]

I'll just repost this here, for the devs to consider. Maybe it's an easy and quick save to the issue at hand:

Johnny Hazard lähetti viestin:

Wait... maybe there's an answer to this.
What if... enemy level was based on the lower average of the player gear level, instead of the actual player's level?
Something like this:
(lowest gear*2 + highest gear)/3
or
(average of all gear + lowest gear)/2
This way, if the player was not equipped properly, enemies would hold their level until player got better stuff.
Green items could add +0.5 to level, blue items +1, red items +1.5, legendary +2

This paired with a more rigid level cap for each system would ease the issue, I think.

This idea would handle Player level as a rule for the level of gear he/she/they can slap on the ship.
Level scaling would then look for an average on gear level that the player carries.
If the Player leveled up, but didn't change gear, the enemies would keep the level difficulty as it was.
Each system would cap this to a minimum/maximum level.
And missions, quests and jobs would have preset difficulty levels. They would only moderately adapt to the player. (mission level*2+player gear level)/3

[Pappy]

Johnny Hazard lähetti viestin:

I'll just repost this here, for the devs to consider. Maybe it's an easy and quick save to the issue at hand

The problem with this approach is that it's just a variation on the alrready existing dynamic enemy level scaling in my opinion and doesn't address what most people are actually complaining about which is the lack of advancement for the player at level up. How about if they left the dyanmic enemy scaling alone and just addressed that issue directly and give the player some type of tangible power advancement on level up?

For example what if they just ditched the existing mainframe expansion system which I think most agree has some issues as it currently exists anyway and simply give people 5 points to spend every time they level up in one of the 6 existing ship attributes, Firepower, Precision, Structure, Utility, Resistance and Expertise. Now those attributes wouldn't work exactly as they do now, they would have to be adjusted to the new system of points awarded but the idea of getting stronger with every level up would be accomplished which has actually been the main complaint.

The question then would be what to do with the existing mainframe expansions as I'm pretty sure that Rockfish is not going to want to just throw all that out the window, but perhaps that could be reworked into providing bonuses that would have nothing to do with a ship's power, for example increasing the tractor beam range or increasing the size of your ships cargo hold or something along those lines. That also would address the issue that some people have with doing the "puzzles" as the rewards for doing said "puzzles" would no longer be tied into ship power in any way thereby making them more optional.

None of this is going to happen of course this late in the development cycle, but if that were to happen, wouldn't that address the issue in a more direct manner? This would be much closer to how the typical RPG does it as well. If what people want is an RPG, give them an RPG, that's really what they are asking for. That would seem to make the most sense to me if they were going to change things.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[M.Hardcase]

Pappy lähetti viestin:

Yeah, that's what I expected. I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt anyway Mr game community.

I do not need or care for your benefit. You are in almost every single thread about the game, behaving the same way, and more than one person has noticed. You and the way you act make the community for the game actively worse and less pleasant to interact with.

You, personally and your behavior on this forum represent a financial risk to the product and you are actually tangibly making the game worse than it would be if you did not exist.

[Johnny Hazard]

Pappy lähetti viestin:

For example what if they just ditched the existing mainframe expansion system which I think most agree has some issues as it currently exists anyway and simply give people 5 points to spend every time they level up in one of the 6 existing ship attributes, Firepower, Precision, Structure, Utility, Resistance and Expertise. Now those attributes wouldn't work exactly as they do now, they would have to be adjusted to the new system of points awarded but the idea of getting stronger with every level up would be accomplished which has actually been the main complaint.

I like this. Much more RPG than it is now.
Maybe the aeternea overrides could be slapped into the ship as devices are, and offer some special bonuses.
A mk1 ship would have 1 slot available, and mk3 would have 3 (mk3+ the same - 3 slots)
Allowing for the use of up to 3 aeternea overrides. And since each override would be unique in its bonus, that would be another lure for making players look for them.
Ex of overrides:
- +10% speed
- +XX maneauvering
- +15% boost speed
- +2 cargo slots
- +1 to all primary weapon levels
- +1 to all secondary weapon levels
- secondary weapons slowly refill
- +25% faster recharge on primary weapon energy
- 2x collision damage
- armor slowly regenerates
- hull slowly regenerates
- shield gives off a static discharge when depleted.
- +25% energy pool for engines
- lateral/vertical thrusters 2x power
- ship teleports backwards when shield is depleted
- armor explodes for corrosion damage when depleted
- secondaries fire double ammo
- +20% sensor range
- +25% dismantling resources
- 25% shield damage increases weapon energy pool
etc...

[pUNK -in- drUBLIC]

You guys have been busy ! Hahaha
I THOUGHT Mainframe comps were useless UNTIL some of my gear came with extra percentage perks... THEN BAM ! Holy Space Guacamole, Batman ! Those multipliers did some powerful math wizardry ;)
I was pleasantly surprised by the synergy of it all... though it took me a looooooong time to see some results :)
Adam's perks could use some diversification and/or more fun as OP mentioned. (I don't get all OP's "fun factors" thought)

Advertised as an RPG... RPG it is !


Have a great Thursday !