Never liked level scaling.. It's a lazy pointless mechanic (in most cases)

[Holy Athena]

level scaling is just a lazy function designed by game developers to make the world feel stagnant, and remove the time required to balance things, while giving a false sense of accomplishment.

Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't actually add anything of value to games, but takes away from it. (In most cases).

Arguably Skyrim where the world should feel somewhat the same, but you're still getting more powerful is done just about as perfectly as level scaling could be.

But the argument then is.. why not just keep everything the same power? Literally.. Then throw in some more powerful weapons and you literally have the same feeling and outcome.

Games with "level scaling" and upgrades, are literally just smoke and mirrors to make you think you're doing anything of value, when you're not. Literally.

---------------

I'd rather have a game where some areas are harder, or easier based on my level, skills, equipment, etc, than just always being this stagnant "same power" even though I'm upgrading things.

This opens the doors for mechanics like loss of ships, back up ships, etc. being options, and other game play dynamics you never see.. Lost a ship? Go buy a new one, but you may need to go back to weaker area's to get back up to where you were, and be safer next time and better prepared.

That and hundreds of other interesting and fun dynamic game-play that could happen, but not possible really with this level scaling stuff that's flooding gaming.

But currently it's just giving a false impression that your upgrades actually did something, when they didn't. The game just just dynamically matched it. Nothing more, nothing less.

[rubyismycat]

PLUS 1

[Umie]

Not scaling is lazy. When you scale up, balance actually matters. Builds actually matter. All the RPGs I played (PoE2, DoS2, CP2077, TW3, etc) I used level scaling mods because I wanted an actual challenge. Builds still get strong due to horizontal progression (synergy of gear sets, unlocked talent trees, and abilities) in all of these games. I don't wanna one-shot a mob because I have infinitely higher stats - I wanna execute a combo and synergize my abilities to take it down. There is still a power fantasy here, just not a brainless one.

[Bozobub]

It absolutely doesn't have to do with "power fantasy", you know. Dynamic scaling, for example tends to remove the "noob thief creeping through the Cavern of Doom" moments, where you know *damn well* you shouldn't be where you are, but maybe snatch a treasure and flee.

I had a *ton* of fun with that in several games.

SCALING is essential, and certainly, some forms of dynamic scaling can be done well. There is a definite tendency and risk, however, of totally removing most of the point of having "level" distinctions ar all, since everything is always roughly your level, through the entire game ^^' .

I've played too many games that actually *fully penalized* leveling up at all, due to how the dynamic scaling worked. We've used "vanilla" Oblivion a lot as an example, because it's very apt for showing how NOT to do it =/ .

Somewhat related note: If you've never tried Oblivion with Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (Or Francesco's)... Wow. Skyrim has similar reworks, as well. You won't believe the difference any of these mods can make. Having to eat, sleep, and protect yourself from the weather/elements, for example, is one of the changes you can make. It's incredible for immersion.

[Yes Indeed!]

Stop saying, "Oblivion."

You are not correctly referencing that game's flawed mechanic, and worse, you're speciously supposing that it was Oblivion's enemy scaling system which caused that game's issues. Oblivion's root problems were player stat scaling and tying its flawed skill-to-levelup system with enemy level. In builds that maximize Oblivion's leveling system's potential, or when using mods that replace its leveling system, the player will very easily outpace the scaling enemies. Your incessant likening is misleading and fallacious.

[Johnny Hazard]

For me, the worst example of level scaling was the guards' levels on Witcher 3. They were always 10-12 levels above player. It went to ridiculous extents, when Geralt was so high level, that I was forced to question... "If the Guards and soldiers are so high level, why the F. do they need a Witcher for? They could just steamroll the whole wild hunt if they wanted to."
It felt awkward, and forced. And only with a mod to fix their levels to lvl 10/16 was it made immersive and playable.

[Bozobub]

Escrito originalmente por Yes Indeed!:

Stop saying, "Oblivion."

You are not correctly referencing that game's flawed mechanic, and worse, you're speciously supposing that it was Oblivion's enemy scaling system which caused that game's issues. Oblivion's root problems were player stat scaling and tying its flawed skill-to-levelup system with enemy level. In builds that maximize Oblivion's leveling system's potential, or when using mods that replace its leveling system, the player will very easily outpace the scaling enemies. Your incessant likening is misleading and fallacious.

No. Dynamic scaling IS enemy scaling, based on player level, silly. You have no idea what you're on about, which makes being a rude twit doubly embarrassing for you.

Notably, mods like OOO fixed Oblivion *both* by mostly eliminating dynamic scaling, using levels from a fixed range for any given location, as well as addressing the also-flawed leveling system (mostly by making it a LOT slower, 5x or more).

I use the example because it's apt for representing the worst form of dynamic scaling. Deal with it. You're not going to be "teaching" anyone here, so you can lose the attitude.

[Pappy]

Escrito originalmente por Bozobub:

I use the example because it's apt for representing the worst form of dynamic scaling.

Thank you for admitting what I have been saying for I don't know what 100 posts or so? ES2's level scaling has little to nothing in common with Oblivion's level scaling. You're acting as if the worst approach possible is the same as one of the better approaches and giving that as your reasoning why ES2 is bad. Just because Oblivion was bad doesn't mean ES2 is bad.

We get it, you don't like level scaling, that's fine. Just don't try to use Oblivion as the reason why level scaling is fundamentally bad, because that's just an example of a bad level scaling system and nothing more.

[Bozobub]

Sorry, the fact you're oblivious impresses me very little. Once again: Oblivion is just an example of the *worst possible* dynamic scaling, combined with the *worst possible* leveling system. I use it to make the potential problems abundantly clear; NO ONE BUT YOU is saying anything about comparing ES2 and Oblivion directly, point of fact.

You don't argue in good faith. Stop. Misrepresenting my words will not work for you, any more than it did the last time you tried it.

[Pappy]

Escrito originalmente por Bozobub:

Oblivion is just an example of the *worst possible* dynamic scaling, combined with the *worst possible* leveling system. I use it to make the potential problems abundantly clear; NO ONE BUT YOU is saying anything about comparing ES2 and Oblivion directly, point of fact. You don't argue in good faith. Stop. Misrepresenting my words will not work for you, any more than it did the last time you tried it.

Really? How about I try posting your own words for everyone to read?

Escrito originalmente por Bozobub:

Escrito originalmente por Pappy:

Everspace 2's leveling up and scaling is completely different from Oblivion. Comparing apples to oranges and then making suggestions based on that comparison is a really bad idea in my humble opinion.

Frankly, no, it is not very different at all. Dynamic leveling nearly ruined Oblivion, which worked overall much as it did here.

Below is the full thread for anyone who wants to verify what was said by whom:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3185738120268739206/?ctp=7

[Bozobub]

Yep, they're not completely different. Nor are they identical. Done embarrassing yourself yet, or would you lime me to dig up the last time you lied about my words, as well?

You don't argue in good faith. STOP. Doing so merely exposes your own insecurity. You are not a gatekeeper here, remember?

[Giraffasaur]

Thank you all for wanting a quality game without needless grinding or fake progression.

Just as a quick intermission, reminder, or simply point of note for those who aren't aware: We have never planned to scale enemies directly to the player's level. Our goal is to incorporate a double-layered scaling system that takes into account the player's experience and the sector (system) level, so backtracking to easier sectors will still bear fruit in the loot that is dropped without being too challenging, while more challenging locations are free to engage for risk-reward style play.

So, let's keep the conversation on the topic and not on each other. In fact, the topic seems to have veered into the heart of the matter: Illusion of difficulty. While level scaling is part of this mess, it's also a strong solution to it, too. It comes down to how it's implemented.

I'm sure the fruits of our labor will become much more apparent when we show the end-game content (which will help truly distinguish the importance of the level progression system when comparing those opening segments and sectors versus the end segments and sectors) this Fall. Based on the conversations in this thread, I'm confident the majority will be pleasantly surprised by what we have in store. All I ask is for your patience as we continue to develop and ensure the dynamic scaling is working as intended.

[Bozobub]

Sounds good to me.

[Damocles]

A solution would be a "tail end" level scaling.

Previously lower level areas get bumped up to something like a "playerlevel - 3" level.
Where enemies are now comparatively easy, but not completely underleveled in case the player decides to visit there again and grind.

While having higher level areas have a static levelrange, that can completely outclass the player if he venture there too quickly.
Winning there should nevertheless have a boosted chance to get really good loot, as a reward for taking on high level enemies.

This higher loot drop chance is a motivation to try the really hard fights early on. But is not a requirement for progression.

Its easier to balance the level progression this way than completely static levels (hard to do), while still allowing old areas to remain relevant, and weapons to remain impactful long enough (until they are replaced anyways). The "exploration-barrier" is formed by the higher level areas, that will expand over time when leveling up ... or intentionally engaging in those hard fights.

[DiabloMuerto]

Generally boils down to what kind of experience you enjoy. My only issue with certain implementations of level scaling is that it makes it so you never really feel powerful. It's one of my biggest gripes about Guild Wars 2, the way the scaling is in that game you just never get to fill that power fantasy. You get access to more skills, builds and advanced classes and different tools but you always feel as weak as you were in the start.

If you're the type of person that always likes a certain challenge then that's not a bad thing. I like something a bit different, I'm fine being weak at the start then getting progressively stronger as I unlock skills and what not. By the time I get to late game I want to feel a decent power improvement but definitely by the time I'm in some of the top-end gear.

There's definitely a sweet spot that needs to be found though. While I don't like how GW2 does it, I think WoW is a bit too laxed where anything not Mythic or up basically becomes just a waste of time. I don't want to cake walk through all the basic content but I do want to feel the power I've supposedly been gaining.

[Blunted by Wizardry]

I'd like to throw my hat in the ring. The level scaling system feels a lot like Destiny, which is a blamd game that maybe barely works for some because of the multiplayer aspects. This being single player only...I feel like it needs a little spice. One possible solution would be ramping up difficulty with greater rewards like in Diablo 3.