Do the enemies still scale according to player level?

[Zeraph]

Looking to buy this game, but I hesitate because I notice this game scales according to player level (which is a very bad idea).

Is this still the case up until now?

[johnhc]

Level scaling?

Hi, so this game looks very interesting and Freelancer ish. But I have one concern, and that is level scaling. Whenever games think that level scaling like diablo 3 or wow retail is a good idea, I just quit. So, before I buy this game, how does different zones and enemy level work?

[Hazzy]

Here’s an official response regarding scaling: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/5/5879990700813147728/#c5879990700815250077

[udar]

Originally posted by johnhc:

Hi, so this game looks very interesting and Freelancer ish. But I have one concern, and that is level scaling. Whenever games think that level scaling like diablo 3 or wow retail is a good idea, I just quit. So, before I buy this game, how does different zones and enemy level work?

Disabling scaling would mean that you have one engaging star system and every other after that is under level, not rewarding, and boring. So you are not free any more to discover how you like, as most of your choices are a waste of time then, regarding usefulness.
Why would you want that?

[surfingod]

after 40/h i was Level 18, have one Interceptor II+ and a Gunship II+ fitted with superior weapons and othe stuff. the game is easy to play without disabling scaling, for now not a big challenge, hope it will come a bit harder. I know Games without Level scaling and all are boring after a short while

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

The enemies scale to your level and the developers are not willing to consider anything else, even an option for the player to choose scaling or not.

[Giraffasaur]

Originally posted by johnhc:

Hi, so this game looks very interesting and Freelancer ish. But I have one concern, and that is level scaling. Whenever games think that level scaling like diablo 3 or wow retail is a good idea, I just quit. So, before I buy this game, how does different zones and enemy level work?

Community is answering this fairly well (thanks everyone). Hazzy posted the response regarding level scaling, but for a more detailed response as to why we're using a soft level scaling system (but NOT pure level scaling!) you can read this post as well: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/5/5879990700813147728/?ctp=2#c3105773861167410483

Originally posted by surfingod:

after 40/h i was Level 18, have one Interceptor II+ and a Gunship II+ fitted with superior weapons and othe stuff. the game is easy to play without disabling scaling, for now not a big challenge, hope it will come a bit harder. I know Games without Level scaling and all are boring after a short while

We've been hearing (and can feel) the player at the starting levels has a struggle, while later levels with simply average loot tends to become too easy. More tweaking (and maybe a bit of overhauling for some) is abound to the location levels, game difficulty, itemization, AI Director, and even the soft level scaling itself. We've seen a decent amount of criticism on enemy scaling so we're revisiting this internally and will absolutely address further. We will also have Difficulty Selection as an option in the future as well which should help get to your desired challenge, too.

[Johnny Hazard]

In my opinion, levels in a system should be set under a pre-determined cap, like Ceto adjusted to levels 1 to 6, Union, levels 7 to 12, etc..
BUT, this wouldn't change mission levels, mysterious locations, and high-risk areas. These should have a wide range of dificulty, so that players keep returning to a specific system, looking for high-level loot that can only spawn there (like the bloodstar mods).
So Ceto could still have level 18 high-level areas, and mysterious locations of that level too.
There's also other things that can be done:
1- Don't adjust enemy levels so high. Create harder unique enemies and make them spawn there. It's foolish to spawn lvl1-lvl18 outlaw scouts. Those should be lvl1-lvl6, Period. If the area is high, spawn a bigger enemy, or spawn LOTS of those scouts of lower level. It's better to have 10 lvl6 scouts swarming, than a lvl18 scout.
We need high-level enemies, those that can only appear in high-level areas. The outlaw destroyer is over-used. Lvl 18? Outlaw Battleship filled with turrets and missiles, and escorted by 4 destroyers. Is that high enough? XD
2- Create a new device - system scanner, and allow the players to scan during system travel, and find secret areas with high-level enemies and challenges.

[Giraffasaur]

Originally posted by Johnny Hazard:

In my opinion, levels in a system should be set under a pre-determined cap, like Ceto adjusted to levels 1 to 6, Union, levels 7 to 12, etc..
BUT, this wouldn't change mission levels, mysterious locations, and high-risk areas. These should have a wide range of dificulty, so that players keep returning to a specific system, looking for high-level loot that can only spawn there (like the bloodstar mods).
So Ceto could still have level 18 high-level areas, and mysterious locations of that level too.[/b]

Truth be told, we did this initially. As an example, the Undead Ship side mission was assigned at level 2. But, the player could hold this mission and go do a lot of other things in the meantime. In our playtests, it felt entirely pointless (other than for a completionist mentality) to revisit this mission when over level 5. So you can imagine at level 15, going back to a level 2 mission (and obtaining level 2 equipment) wasn't very fun for us.

Instances like this - while also wanting to avoid generic stat-buffing enemies via pure level scaling - ended up shaping why we have both area levels and soft level scaling apply.

Originally posted by Johnny Hazard:

There's also other things that can be done:
1- Don't adjust enemy levels so high. Create harder unique enemies and make them spawn there. It's foolish to spawn lvl1-lvl18 outlaw scouts. Those should be lvl1-lvl6, Period. If the area is high, spawn a bigger enemy, or spawn LOTS of those scouts of lower level. It's better to have 10 lvl6 scouts swarming, than a lvl18 scout.
We need high-level enemies, those that can only appear in high-level areas. The outlaw destroyer is over-used. Lvl 18? Outlaw Battleship filled with turrets and missiles, and escorted by 4 destroyers. Is that high enough? XD
2- Create a new device - system scanner, and allow the players to scan during system travel, and find secret areas with high-level enemies and challenges.

Ironically, #1 is happening, but not to a major degree (yet). If you get a Signal Decoder early on and use it, the leader that shows up is only an Outlaw Ravager. As the player gets higher in level, the leader is replaced by an Outlaw Destroyer. As more enemy types are added, this will likely be how we address combat as a whole. That said, we are still planning on using high-level Scouts too, but the plan is to distinguish them a bit further from their low-level counterparts (so a high-level Scout may use a different AI pattern or weapon combination).

I like your idea in #2. We are absolutely working on more devices, so we'll have to see if any of them fit the bill or not.

[Tilen]

My two cents: I dislike level scaling of any sort. It is part of the power fantasy to be able to outgrow content, and returning to ares which you can dominate, solidifies this feeling.

Returning to quests after having surpassed their challenge, to me is an option I very much like to take in RPGs. I Intentionally do side content in order to gain power and blaze through my enemies.

I do not understand the point of progression in a game like War Thunder, where you're always scaled relative to your enemy. What's the point?!

Just... saying.

Edit: and I read that the game isn't supposed to be a power fantasy, but loot focused instead, however I urge you to reconsider this premise. Even a loot based game has to have the power fantasy as its base and motivational factor for the player (let alone the item grind).

Anyway, I understand that our visions may not align, and perfectly content to accept what is given, with the caveat that it just won't unfortunately be quite what I'm looking for and, of course, that you can never please everyone.

[udar]

Originally posted by Tilen:

My two cents: I dislike level scaling of any sort. It is part of the power fantasy to be able to outgrow content, and returning to ares which you can dominate, solidifies this feeling.

Returning to quests after having surpassed their challenge, to me is an option I very much like to take in RPGs. I Intentionally do side content in order to gain power and blaze through my enemies.

I do not understand the point of progression in a game like War Thunder, where you're always scaled relative to your enemy. What's the point?!

Just... saying.

Edit: and I read that the game isn't supposed to be a power fantasy, but loot focused instead, however I urge you to reconsider this premise. Even a loot based game has to have the power fantasy as its base and motivational factor for the player (let alone the item grind).

Anyway, I understand that our visions may not align, and perfectly content to accept what is given, with the caveat that it just won't unfortunately be quite what I'm looking for and, of course, that you can never please everyone.

Why would you return to a low level area if all you get there are boring 1-hit enemies and nothing else as reward?
All the rewards, meaning loot, are useless by then!

You want your power fantasy?
You have it by learning how the enemies work and outsmart them (they're stupid bots!), and by keeping above average loot.

[Tilen]

Originally posted by udar:

Originally posted by Tilen:

My two cents: I dislike level scaling of any sort. It is part of the power fantasy to be able to outgrow content, and returning to ares which you can dominate, solidifies this feeling.

Returning to quests after having surpassed their challenge, to me is an option I very much like to take in RPGs. I Intentionally do side content in order to gain power and blaze through my enemies.

I do not understand the point of progression in a game like War Thunder, where you're always scaled relative to your enemy. What's the point?!

Just... saying.

Edit: and I read that the game isn't supposed to be a power fantasy, but loot focused instead, however I urge you to reconsider this premise. Even a loot based game has to have the power fantasy as its base and motivational factor for the player (let alone the item grind).

Anyway, I understand that our visions may not align, and perfectly content to accept what is given, with the caveat that it just won't unfortunately be quite what I'm looking for and, of course, that you can never please everyone.

Why would you return to a low level area if all you get there are boring 1-hit enemies and nothing else as reward?
All the rewards, meaning loot, are useless by then!

You want your power fantasy?
You have it by learning how the enemies work and outsmart them (they're stupid bots!), and by keeping above average loot.

Consider it a stroll through the gutters.

[onomastikon]

Recently, i downloaded and played destiny 2 for the first time. I thought the gunplay was great, and loved the itemization. I had no idea that the "power level 750" gear i started with was at the "new" level cap which the people who had been playing for a year had reached only after a lot of grinding. I was very pleased to see new and exciting gear drop - until I realized the enemies were now automatically spawning at my new level. Getting more powerful gear ended up hurting me. I quit soon thereafter.
I much prefer diablo 2 - there is no reason to go back to the cellars in act 1 once you can beat act 3. That seems natural.
Make the game challenging enough that you need to get better loot to progress more easily. Loot should be the motor for the feeling of being rewarded - and should make us feel more powerful, not less.

[Crensh]

Originally posted by johnhc:

Hi, so this game looks very interesting and Freelancer ish. But I have one concern, and that is level scaling. Whenever games think that level scaling like diablo 3 or wow retail is a good idea, I just quit. So, before I buy this game, how does different zones and enemy level work?

you reckon this is like Freelancer? I wish it was since it was an awesome game but this one is a bit different.

[Sparhawk122]

Much prefer levelled zones. Like classic RPGs. Better feeling of progression.

Level scaling has it so it feels like your character is not getting more powerful. In some bad examples of level scaling it actually feels like your character can get a little bit weaker as you level up. And it is demotivating.

There's also games that give you a toggle option. To turn level scaling on or off. Since this game is singleplayer that seems like a feasible solution. Also soft level scaling can be done right if not too overzealous.

[The Rooster]

i like the difficulty selection option, im level 8 now with a crap ship and i just die all the time, not really fun