Watching my m8 play...Its a fantastic game...but ruined by impossible/solw AF Stealth missions

[DANDOMINO]

MY title says it all. Impressive game. The main devs should be proud. Altho Speech and drama is far too boring and foreign tbh, but so many things are a massive cut above other turn-based games that I rate this highly...

...and then - the stealth missions ruin EVERYTHING, Dev who thought ultra difficult stealth should go. The rest of the devs should be proud of making such a delightful taxing meaningful game.

Stealth missions are just so difficult.

[asdf]

The thing that frustrates me the most about stealth missions is that it feels like they were designed as though the player should just know where everything is before they even start the map even though there's fog of war for the player. There are a lot of optional objectives that are basically impossible to get if you don't have the map already memorized beforehand (or take huge risks), and playing on challenge+ where you have to restart and take a ton of the same actions over and over again when something you couldn't have possibly predicted or planned for just ends the run.

[neochen']

Originally posted by asdf:

The thing that frustrates me the most about stealth missions is that it feels like they were designed as though the player should just know where everything is before they even start the map even though there's fog of war for the player. There are a lot of optional objectives that are basically impossible to get if you don't have the map already memorized beforehand (or take huge risks), and playing on challenge+ where you have to restart and take a ton of the same actions over and over again when something you couldn't have possibly predicted or planned for just ends the run.

Funniest thing when you get no auto saves during 20 turn long stealth sequence, but in a combat mission that is done in 10 minutes on your first try you get like 3, every 3-5 turns.

[Akameka]

I think stealth missions are pretty straight foward. Loot items pretty much guide you toward the good path. There is a few trial and errors, but that's it. And the more you know about the detection range of ennemies, the less mistake you'll make, and the easiest you'll determine which guards need to go to sleep and where/when.

You have scanners : Use them, and don't place them just beside a tile where you have no visibility, as there could be someone inside. Remember to recover them if there is a guard pathing beside it during the next turn.

Later you have recon drone that you can use to pickup items away from your path. You can also get up when in forrest and far away from ennemies, so you can walk further. Lastly, small AP items can now be used if needed, and most missions don't instantly fail anymore when spotted.

Don't down guards in the spotlight path or near watchtowers, unless they are inside a building/forest/container.

Be extra carefull of hidden tiles and elevated ones. Scout and elite scouts are the main problems in thoses missions.

Yes some event pull enemmies toward you unexpectly, but there aren't usually a threat until the next turn ( it can happen though )


One thing I do agree though, is the fact they are very long, and probabaly infuriating in challenge+. There should be autosave every five turns at least for thoses. Redoing a whole infiltration mission of 1h from start because of badluck or a single mistake was never fun in let's say Payday for exemple, and will never be in any games.

[It is my CAT]

Originally posted by DANDOMINO:

...and then - the stealth missions ruin EVERYTHING

Yeah, they made very poor difficulty optimization. Not just them, of course. It happens in many other games too.

Here they spawn less enemies (on standard difficulty compared to hard), but in way less important parts of map.

But here and on YT you can find walkthrough of all stealth missions. So it is not a big issue.

[SethFrost]

I honestly like the stealth missions. It's much needed break from the regular missions which can get quite brutal (I'm playing on Challenge difficulty).
But yes your not going to clear them the first time that's almost guaranteed but again I don't mind restarting as almost everything plays out the same each time.

[wenz7]

I dont' want to sound mean, but I second the guy saying stealth in this game is pretty straightforward. I you aren't sure where to place your drone why not deploy it immediately behind you? That way you won't step on a dangerous tile as you move forward, and spot some other point where you can deploy another radar safely further away from you. Some "stealth" maps have secrets you can use to beat the map but that's a matter of how much you can explore in a limited amount of turns. I would agree that might result in some trial and error but they tend to make a good part of the maps trivial once you find them out.

[asdf]

Originally posted by wenz7:

I dont' want to sound mean, but I second the guy saying stealth in this game is pretty straightforward. I you aren't sure where to place your drone why not deploy it immediately behind you? That way you won't step on a dangerous tile as you move forward, and spot some other point where you can deploy another radar safely further away from you. Some "stealth" maps have secrets you can use to beat the map but that's a matter of how much you can explore in a limited amount of turns. I would agree that might result in some trial and error but they tend to make a good part of the maps trivial once you find them out.

First off, if you have to use trial and error, then that's basically already admitting that you need knowledge of the map before playing the map to succeed.

Secondly, the strategy you're talking about does not work in a lot of maps. Midnight Strategem in act 4 seems especially egregious to me for instance - there is so little room for error on that map that you literally can't use scanners a lot of the time because if you do you won't have enough action points to do everything you need to each turn unless you start spamming a ton of items that give you extra AP.. and they also decided to include stealthed patrolling enemies on this map. There are also a lot of optional objectives that give you turn limits, and those turn limits are often very strict to the point that it makes it impossible to scout properly and also get the objective at the same time.

Also, sometimes you can use a dart on an enemy that appears to be a safe choice, only for the game to decide to spawn an extra enemy later on that wakes them up without giving any viable counterplay.. I also had one time where an enemy spawned in a position where it would reveal me on the next turn and I couldn't move anywhere that could prevent it without reloading, and there was just no way it could have been planned for.

To some extent I might have made it worse on myself since I was playing on challenge+ and trying to S rank every mission without repeating them.. but still, stealth missions were absolutely infuriating in my playthrough. I could beat most combat maps on the first attempt with S rank no problem, but stealth maps were absolutely awful for challenge+.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by asdf:

Secondly, the strategy you're talking about does not work in a lot of maps. Midnight Strategem in act 4 seems especially egregious to me for instance - there is so little room for error on that map that you literally can't use scanners a lot of the time because if you do you won't have enough action points to do everything you need to each turn unless you start spamming a ton of items that give you extra AP

Pretty sure you can't even use AP-boosting items in the stealth part of Midnight Stratagem. As with all stealth-absolutely-enforced maps, it bans the use of Field Rations/Special Braised Pork/Replenishment Drinks.

[Plantszaza]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by asdf:

Secondly, the strategy you're talking about does not work in a lot of maps. Midnight Strategem in act 4 seems especially egregious to me for instance - there is so little room for error on that map that you literally can't use scanners a lot of the time because if you do you won't have enough action points to do everything you need to each turn unless you start spamming a ton of items that give you extra AP

Pretty sure you can't even use AP-boosting items in the stealth part of Midnight Stratagem. As with all stealth-absolutely-enforced maps, it bans the use of Field Rations/Special Braised Pork/Replenishment Drinks.

After they patched Most Stealth Stage to be "Can combat"
All those item bans are lifted.
Someone will probably get creative with them soon.

[Hermunster]

Originally posted by asdf:

Originally posted by wenz7:

I dont' want to sound mean, but I second the guy saying stealth in this game is pretty straightforward. I you aren't sure where to place your drone why not deploy it immediately behind you? That way you won't step on a dangerous tile as you move forward, and spot some other point where you can deploy another radar safely further away from you. Some "stealth" maps have secrets you can use to beat the map but that's a matter of how much you can explore in a limited amount of turns. I would agree that might result in some trial and error but they tend to make a good part of the maps trivial once you find them out.

First off, if you have to use trial and error, then that's basically already admitting that you need knowledge of the map before playing the map to succeed.

Secondly, the strategy you're talking about does not work in a lot of maps. Midnight Strategem in act 4 seems especially egregious to me for instance - there is so little room for error on that map that you literally can't use scanners a lot of the time because if you do you won't have enough action points to do everything you need to each turn unless you start spamming a ton of items that give you extra AP.. and they also decided to include stealthed patrolling enemies on this map. There are also a lot of optional objectives that give you turn limits, and those turn limits are often very strict to the point that it makes it impossible to scout properly and also get the objective at the same time.

Also, sometimes you can use a dart on an enemy that appears to be a safe choice, only for the game to decide to spawn an extra enemy later on that wakes them up without giving any viable counterplay.. I also had one time where an enemy spawned in a position where it would reveal me on the next turn and I couldn't move anywhere that could prevent it without reloading, and there was just no way it could have been planned for.

To some extent I might have made it worse on myself since I was playing on challenge+ and trying to S rank every mission without repeating them.. but still, stealth missions were absolutely infuriating in my playthrough. I could beat most combat maps on the first attempt with S rank no problem, but stealth maps were absolutely awful for challenge+.

Going on Challenge+ difficulty (especially your first time going through) you should expect trial and error as it is intended to be done when you are familiar with the stages. That difficulty adds in additional enemies, making stealth missions much harder.

[Akameka]

After reaching the start of chapter 5, I would agree that midnight stratagem is probably the worst offender for now, As you can mess up sevral turn before and be screwed only 4 turns later in ways that are way less predictable than the searchlight's pathsin other missions. Still, it wasn't that hard to figure how to do it.

[asdf]

Originally posted by Hermunster:

Originally posted by asdf:

First off, if you have to use trial and error, then that's basically already admitting that you need knowledge of the map before playing the map to succeed.

Secondly, the strategy you're talking about does not work in a lot of maps. Midnight Strategem in act 4 seems especially egregious to me for instance - there is so little room for error on that map that you literally can't use scanners a lot of the time because if you do you won't have enough action points to do everything you need to each turn unless you start spamming a ton of items that give you extra AP.. and they also decided to include stealthed patrolling enemies on this map. There are also a lot of optional objectives that give you turn limits, and those turn limits are often very strict to the point that it makes it impossible to scout properly and also get the objective at the same time.

Also, sometimes you can use a dart on an enemy that appears to be a safe choice, only for the game to decide to spawn an extra enemy later on that wakes them up without giving any viable counterplay.. I also had one time where an enemy spawned in a position where it would reveal me on the next turn and I couldn't move anywhere that could prevent it without reloading, and there was just no way it could have been planned for.

To some extent I might have made it worse on myself since I was playing on challenge+ and trying to S rank every mission without repeating them.. but still, stealth missions were absolutely infuriating in my playthrough. I could beat most combat maps on the first attempt with S rank no problem, but stealth maps were absolutely awful for challenge+.

Going on Challenge+ difficulty (especially your first time going through) you should expect trial and error as it is intended to be done when you are familiar with the stages. That difficulty adds in additional enemies, making stealth missions much harder.

Well, I can say that *only* the stealth missions required the trial and error that I'm talking about. The combat missions didn't have that problem, even going into it blind.

[Plantszaza]

I have a feeling people will not stop complaining until the developers remove the stealth missions entirely.
If they are going to add the skip function to the "Stealth Mission", I want it to be Casual Mode Exclusive.
There are people like me who enjoy trial and error.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by Plantszaza:

Originally posted by Daliena:

Pretty sure you can't even use AP-boosting items in the stealth part of Midnight Stratagem. As with all stealth-absolutely-enforced maps, it bans the use of Field Rations/Special Braised Pork/Replenishment Drinks.

After they patched Most Stealth Stage to be "Can combat"
All those item bans are lifted.
Someone will probably get creative with them soon.

On the stages which "can combat" the item bans are lifted yes. But Midnight Stratagem, and some others, is still "stealth only, if you get spotted, reload", and those stages still ban items.

[DANDOMINO]

Originally posted by SethFrost:

I honestly like the stealth missions. It's much needed break from the regular missions which can get quite brutal (I'm playing on Challenge difficulty).
But yes your not going to clear them the first time that's almost guaranteed but again I don't mind restarting as almost everything plays out the same each time.

I see your point. But the enormous save scumming just makes me furious.