Hittites culture awful balance or what?

[Dorok]

I was doing comparison test of cultures, and when trying Hittites they feel awful. It's not helping it's a play without 2 horses for their special unit, but still. Ok the +1 Power is fully minimized by higher difficulty level, it's not helping, but still.

I wonder who can defend the design and with what arguments?

[knighttemplar1960]

The Hittites are truly underwhelming. The +1 strength isn't enough help and doesn't carry over (perhaps it should grant units a level of veterancy instead?) The emblematic quarter morphs back into the regular version when you change cultures in the next era which is no help at all and the emblematic unit is essentially a +1 strength chariot. When you upgrade them into knights any bonuses are also lost.

Nothing from the Hittite culture carries over into the next era its like you choose them and next era they cease to exist.

[Dorok]

I doubt permanent global bonus aren't permanent, but +1 power doesn't mean much. And nope their chariot don't suddenly disappear at next era. They are that type of unit for two eras that is in middle of 2 eras.

For the chariot it has special properties of Suppression with attacked unit that can't move and has reduced power but I don't know how much power penalty. It's not bad but I don't see this justify the culture design.

For their emblematic "building" it's more they have none and the +2 food on outpost is pointless, so outpost can produce a bit more food and that's it, +2 is insignificant at territory size. For using outpost to spawn produced units it seems very limited by a proximity requirement so more an illusion bonus except if someone explain me clearly the utility. I hadn't realize they was loosing the outpost bonus at next era, it makes it even worse, but on base it worth nothing, zero plus zero isn't better than zero, so have it at next era is pointless.

If the food bonus was more significant, perhaps I could try multiply outpost after first town instead of rushing to a second town, but for +2 it's not even worth the try, in my opinion.

[mk11]

+1 strength is better than the XP bonus Mycenaean receives (it is +1 when at max level and also faster to gain next levels). Heavy cavalry are cheaper than the Mycenaean while other units are more expensive.

If you set an outpost as the land spawn point you can get your troops into action faster. Can you use this to spawn a militia army?

Does the +2food&industry help establish the outpost faster or only apply after the outpost is established?

So if you want an early militaristic culture Hittites aren't bad, just Mycenaean are so much better because of an excellent emblematic district and good emblematic unit. Unfortunately, militaristic isn't that strong in the ancient era.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by mk11:

+1 strength is better than the XP bonus Mycenaean receives (it is +1 when at max level and also faster to gain next levels). Heavy cavalry are cheaper than the Mycenaean while other units are more expensive.

If you set an outpost as the land spawn point you can get your troops into action faster. Can you use this to spawn a militia army?

Does the +2food&industry help establish the outpost faster or only apply after the outpost is established?

So if you want an early militaristic culture Hittites aren't bad, just Mycenaean are so much better because of an excellent emblematic district and good emblematic unit. Unfortunately, militaristic isn't that strong in the ancient era.

Right +2 food and +2 industry, but in theory, it's still broken and not fixed, lol. Check an outpost right before culture pick, Hittite, outpost produces nothing more, lol.

Even if persistent as town or admin center it's very small anyway. Only influence would make worth such tiny bonus per territory, otherwise without any proximity mechanic, it's insignificant.

Sure the +1 is better than the xp bonus even more because xp have a limit and reach the max isn't that hard. But Mycenaean is just one of the best first culture, Hittites is awful compared to it.

Assyrians is a better comparison point for Hittitites, but Assyrian are better, the +1 move is great and by itself justify them, but also their emblematic building is solid. But in first era the ability to build it in outposts is fake because it costs too much influence. Sure the ransaking bonus looks a bit weak, and the unit also isn't great. But overall, they don't feel like Hittites that is, totally screwed up.

And yeah Militarist action is crap in first era, a serious design problem, just not compatible with the era. In theory Independents could allow exploit it a little, but assimilate for that is out of price for a Military culture.

[mk11]

So the industry bonus is missing - a bug.

If the bug was fixed then it would be useful in getting outposts founded faster and because they can act as land spawn points that is a bonus in getting your attack going sooner. On faster speeds that it is a lot more aggressive, and because you are a militaristic culture you don't have to faff around with grievances before you attack.

So, if you are in a situation where you are going to want an early attack Hittites might be worth a try. E.g. a small continent with only one AI on it. Since you are attacking you are going to be building units rather than districts so the absence of an emblematic district doesn't matter.

[Dorok]

The food bonus is as much invisible, if it's not applied on outpost output then the tooltip is very unclear, more probably a weird bug here since long if not since release.

For spawn point they need be close by, you don't gain much from it. Moreover it's a bit theoretical, wars in 1st era are at best late 1st era if you don't try exploit either Mycenaean or some scout abuses.

I'm making a test, from a same save right before exit Neolithic. I wonder if AI aren't a bit more aggressive when you pick such Military culture. That said if I can't have even one horse resource (weak start) I got 2 from one or two AI through trade, and still able make war against another or two other AI. The chariot is perhaps a real bonus, chariot are a powerful tool in first era, but I tend have them from Independents.

For first era Assyrian is a much better Militarist culture. And for quick wars it's Mycenaean.

[mk11]

I see the food bonus in the tool-tip as Narrative bonus(empire).

For the spawn point it could be the difference between 4 turns to get to the enemy and 1. Not significant at Endless speed, big difference at Blitz.

If you are talking about trading with 1 or 2 AI and making war on 1 or 2 AI that is not the conditions in which Hittites might be useful.

I thought Assyrians were Expansionist?

Agreed that Mycenaeans are nearly always better than Hittites but that is the thing. There are supposed to be cultures that are better than others.

[Dorok]

Tooltip? I'll check, it remains that outpost production doesn't change so in tooltip or not, I don't see how it can add anything if it's not in outpost output.

4 turns 1 turns? It needs be close by. At 600 turns and first era there's no time to really exploit this for more than one territory and you don't choose outpost position for their unit spawning. Ok you can change them, but there's a price and influence points are precious in first era. That's comment on paper, hardly realistic.

Mycenaeans are expansionist.

I think cultures need have some balances, not be balanced, the problem in my opinion is it's awful for Hittites. I haven't played them all, but plenty and even if later era it's a bit different, beside Phoanicians that have also a clear design problem, I never played anything as weak and weird than Hittites. At least for Pheaonicians they are special in context of first era, not Hittitites.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by mk11:

I see the food bonus in the tool-tip as Narrative bonus(empire).

Not for me, before Hittite, food tooltip no special bonus, Hittite, food tooltip no special bonus, and output of outpost didn't change for neither food nor factory.

[mk11]

Originally posted by Dorok:

4 turns 1 turns? It needs be close by. At 600 turns and first era there's no time to really exploit this for more than one territory and you don't choose outpost position for their unit spawning. Ok you can change them, but there's a price and influence points are precious in first era. That's comment on paper, hardly realistic.

You don't because it doesn't make any difference - unless you are the Hittites. If you are going for an early knock-out of one AI then there is likely only one territory that matters.

[mk11]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Originally posted by mk11:

I see the food bonus in the tool-tip as Narrative bonus(empire).

Not for me, before Hittite, food tooltip no special bonus, Hittite, food tooltip no special bonus, and output of outpost didn't change for neither food nor factory.

Okay. Bonus I had was from an event in the neolithic. Looks like it is completely bugged.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by mk11:

Originally posted by Dorok:

4 turns 1 turns? It needs be close by. At 600 turns and first era there's no time to really exploit this for more than one territory and you don't choose outpost position for their unit spawning. Ok you can change them, but there's a price and influence points are precious in first era. That's comment on paper, hardly realistic.

You don't because it doesn't make any difference - unless you are the Hittites. If you are going for an early knock-out of one AI then there is likely only one territory that matters.

Not fully right, an early knock out is more for Mycenaeans, Hittites start with nothing special get their chariot is already a long ride, to produce all units it's long and they have a bonus only for chariot and it's just 25%, and it's even longer with only one town. And AI first steps are unbeatable to produce units, I mean at higher difficulties.

If it's possible it's only through some Neolithic abuse and then not related to Hittites. Otherwise the preparation length couldn't justify give up on a second town.

[yeknod]

What's being missed in this discussion is the Militarist Type effect, which is automatic War Score +25 [correct me if I'm wrong]. Anyone who picks any Militarist faction in Ancient is obviously striving for a quick victory over a neighbouring faction. They aren't building a militarist society for the long haul, they've chosen militarism because conflict is unavoidable or irresistible in the moment. What mystifies me is the chariot as emblematic unit for the Hittites. The arch-enemy of the real Hittites was Egypt [who were the legitimate chariot masters of the time] and Babylon. The Hittite power base was in the hill country of central Asia Minor territory - a land of narrow mountain passes - not the place chariots hold advantage. I don't know what the Hittite units were, but horses, trees and metals were local. Perhaps a scout emblematic unit or a buff axeman unit would be more appropriate. And since we are on that subject, how did Mycenean grab the axeman? Their territory was Greece and the islands of the Aegean. Everyone knows Greeks prefer daggers and swords. As a history buff, I enjoy Humankind a lot, but I wince at the lack of historical research that went into it.

[Dorok]

No, mrk11 already opened the topic of Militarist, and I already tried answer.

It's just on paper, but in reality and last difficulty level Hittites have no tools for a quick crush:
- The Power +1 brings nothing, AI have better on start.
- The chariot is a long ride to get and build multiple units.
- They can't hope any help from Independents, they are a too weak culture for that.
- At this difficulty and that soon in the play AI still build too fast solid stacks a long before the player can, he needs something to compensate and Hittite offers nothing for anything quick.
- The military action is totally pointless in this era, or that's what I think.

Eventually it would be a plan for a crush in last parts of first era and enough chariot, because it could be a very good unit for that era. In plays test I'm trying I could still try that, it's turn 70. But for now it's a disaster compared to Olmec from same Neolithic exit.

Also as mrk11 quoted, the ability to spawn units at outpost in junction with the town is really a plus when with right context and setup. But before produce reinforcement during a war you need start the war in good conditions. Moreover bad production value of the culture make this not much useful, you'd better not lost any unit or very few.

Let be clear those comment don't include a Neolithic exit with plenty scouts, that's a power not really culture related, and I only wanted try do comparisons between cultures.

EDIT:
Also the start is average to weak and it's not helping Hittites, I mean no bad territories but nothing very good, first towns on good territories not great, not that many resources before first frontiers of AI and none in potential back land. The result is a poor unit production level for a town and average for another.

[Dorok]

So I tried force a war I would never do, sure I was crushing an AI, but when another AI declared war and chained with attacking towns it was dead.

I couldn't sustain production of both a defense army and a serious attack forces, this culture is too much garbage crap.

Anyway a culture with a permanent bonus that never worked since release, and never fixed, it's saying a lot on a fake culture unfinished.

Ok for me the case is closed, crap design, nothing else to find in it.

EDIT:
One point, yeah the emblematic unit is quite good, but that's too short.