HUMANKIND™

HUMANKIND™

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Archgoose Sep 14, 2021 @ 4:17pm
War Support
Can someone explain to me why I'm in a War, I'm the one conquering cities, I'm the one winning every battle, and yet I'm the one "forced" to surrender and lose two massively useful districts?! War Support needs a serious retuning, it's absolutely ridiculous. I fight a massive battle and conquer a major city and all I get from it is 8 measly points?! I was so frustrated at that I straight up quit the game. Not only do wars take too long to resolve in this game, but "War Support" is an absolute trash mechanic as it stands. So infuriating.
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Showing 1-15 of 95 comments
Archgoose Sep 14, 2021 @ 7:11pm 
Ok I'm a little less upset now. I loaded a turn earlier and just surrendered, allowing me to dictate the terms. Instead of any territories I just gave them straight gold, which they accepted. Best 1,200 gold I ever spent. After a few grievances and demands I had my War Support back up to 100, declared war on them again, took the last city they had on the continent we were fighting over, easily crushed their war support, forced a surrender. Claimed the city and got 3,200 gold for my troubles. So, in the end, who really won?
You did. A few tips:
1. put a few straggling solo troops to be killed out - they will get attacked, giving you a grievance which can become a demand. It can also increase their war support to kill your unit, which can prolong a war you don't want to end too early.
2. Always stay focused on what gives grievances and demands - make sure you always have more, so let yourself be a victim of some things for that reason.

This system is even worse when you're in a war where someone revolts against you, you win the battles, but the war ends "because god said so" and you auto-meet their demands.
Dorok Sep 14, 2021 @ 10:30pm 
1: Mmm not working with any AI and context, but yeah worth a try. And you can just flee, you get a grievance anyway.
2: How have more grievance than enemy changes anything?

Revolt: Damit I never ever get a revolt only many warning it could happen, and nope I never picked the law disabling revolt.

For OP trick in his second post, I didn't knew, that's for sure a quite interesting option, but you need have the money, still it can let you choose what you gave up. And it's a bit weird if AI auto accept, even more because they tend use the option a lot too late when it's not as useful as OP second post explains.

EDIT:
To remove enemy grievance (before war) you can reject them it forces them either declare war (when they aren't ready) either give up them so remove them.
Last edited by Dorok; Sep 14, 2021 @ 10:33pm
I was unaware I could jump into diplo and force a war by rejecting all grievances.

And the entire system of "Warscore to prevent map painting" is defeated by itself.

This is a bad system because it only "works" against newbies. Once someone is schooled, they will never fall for it again and might even make better gains than in Civ.
Last edited by Professor Hardknocks; Sep 15, 2021 @ 4:48am
jonnin Sep 15, 2021 @ 4:57am 
The system needs work but I find it has good points too. The 2 main issues are that
- you can be winning but lose due to opponent having gamed the system.
- you can game the system, with civics, religion, culture and such to have stupidly good war support even if you are an insignificant power.

I like the short duration wars, given how much real time a turn represents, it makes a lot more sense than ongoing war for 4000 years.
I like the surrender here; certain other games, the AI can't be forced to give up a city.
I like the way traitor was handled. It does not last too long, and the AI gets over bad behavior eventually, unlike some games I could mention.
Last edited by jonnin; Sep 15, 2021 @ 4:59am
angelsdavid1989 Sep 15, 2021 @ 4:58am 
Yah, I was in a war, and doing well too, and next thing i knew I got this message that the other side forced me to surrender. Umm... what? I don't surrender... ever... fight to the death, till there is nothing left... whats up with that
I want the option of short or long wars, and this system is just a thing to game toward that end. I hate it for a different reason: It makes the AI feel like you're playing a munchkin in multiplayer who behaves like a total brat, instigates a war, then when he loses a few battles and a city, "God declared this war is over" and he may resume being a total jerk while laughing that he got to press all of his demands despite doing nothing in the war.

I avoid MP and I don't want Single Player to feel like MP in any way.
What I like about the system is - everyone will be fooled about 3 times. Once the "newb phase" wears off and you know how to game this system, this system ceases to do what it was intended to accomplish. It doesn't stop map painting, add a bigger challenge, or anything like that - it just adds another layer of Micro.
The Former Sep 15, 2021 @ 7:11am 
Originally posted by Archgoose:
Can someone explain to me why I'm in a War, I'm the one conquering cities, I'm the one winning every battle, and yet I'm the one "forced" to surrender and lose two massively useful districts?!

Supposing every word of this sentence is true without any hidden facts, I can tell you quite easily:

You're destroying the enemy's civilization as you go, slaughtering innocents by the tens of thousands and sowing the seeds of a never ending rebellion in the process. If you want to win a war, capture and occupy territory, don't raze it to the ground. Show your enemy's people you're stronger, not that they have no chance of survival with you as their ruler.
The Former Sep 15, 2021 @ 7:15am 
Originally posted by angelsdavid1989:
Yah, I was in a war, and doing well too, and next thing i knew I got this message that the other side forced me to surrender. Umm... what? I don't surrender... ever... fight to the death, till there is nothing left... whats up with that

You don't surrender, but your soldiers do. You want to fight to the death, great. Good luck doing that by yourself with 100,000 enemy warriors bearing down on you, and your own forces willing to stab you in the back for trying to make them throw away their lives for your insane cause.

Rather than let you get an instant game over because of something so ridiculous, the devs have seen fit to design it such that these minutae are taken out of the equation. Once your soldiers are done fighting and your people are done feeding your war machine, your war is over. You've lost.
G4M5T3R Sep 15, 2021 @ 9:18am 
Originally posted by Old School:
What I like about the system is - everyone will be fooled about 3 times. Once the "newb phase" wears off and you know how to game this system, this system ceases to do what it was intended to accomplish. It doesn't stop map painting, add a bigger challenge, or anything like that - it just adds another layer of Micro.
Against AI
Originally posted by G4M5T3R:
Against AI

Not everyone wants to play against other players. This isn't an MMO, and both player types and game modes need to be considered.
Last edited by Professor Hardknocks; Sep 15, 2021 @ 10:23am
FoxFox Sep 15, 2021 @ 10:45am 
At the start of a war you have a certain level of War Support. This level is higher when you have active grievances or demands on the other empire and is modified by other things as well, like having a militarist culture. The base value for War Support is 50, but this can be lower if you just came out of a war and will be up to 100 if you have had active grievances or demands for a while.

Generally you gain War Support if the war is going well and you lose it when the war is going badly. So far so good. But you also get penalties per turn for starting an unjust war (when you don't have grievances or demands on the other empire) and for fighting an empire that is ideologically close to you. Ideology is determined by you choices in random events and your selection of civics. You also get a -1 per turn per territory penalty if you territories are under the cultural influence of your enemy.

If you are fighting an unjust war against an empire that is ideologically close to yours and has cultural influence over your territories, then your population and soldiers are not going to be happy about it and you will be losing War Support very fast, even if you easily defeat their armies and occupy their cities. All these victories only give you one time bonuses, so once you run out of things to kill or conquer you will be losing War Support faster than your opponent and therefore ultimately lose the war.

Imagine the US invading Canada tomorrow: Sure they'll win on the military front, but you can be sure that the next person to win the election will be the one who promises to end the occupation of Canada. So American War support will run out way before Canada's War Support, even Canada is fully occupied.

Wars in Humankind are not just military conflicts. They also take into account the political will to fight. If you want to win wars, you need both War Support and military power. You can't win wars without proper War Support.
Last edited by FoxFox; Sep 15, 2021 @ 10:46am
Dorok Sep 15, 2021 @ 11:13am 
Occupy a city gives -4 per turn to enemy, that's faster than any malus I saw (-1 declare war, -1 proximity, ok perhaps some cases -2 for proximity not sure, I think it was coming from being under influence).
Which is why everyone razes and builds an outpost somewhere that's actually good because the AI doesn't know what it's doing. It just expands. Even if a player wanted to keep a city, it's still better to just raze it and build a new one instead.

There are a lot of silly exploit tricks to game the entire war support and warscore systems. Once these are more popularized, you're going to be forced to use them or lose against anyone who does - reducing strategic choice and meaningful actions. You get the cultures and tricks set up to ensure you enter any war with high war support, and build warscore very quickly; or you lose to whoever does, and since there's a limited number of these available, you are all bee-lining to this.

And like I've said in other threads - it's irritating that you can actually lose to wars where you wipe the enemies sufficiently but still have to cede to their demands because god said so.
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Date Posted: Sep 14, 2021 @ 4:17pm
Posts: 95