Thoughts after a Level 0, no growth run

[Pnume]

I’ve just finished a Level 0, no growth run https://youtu.be/OQp2OXtbI3w and the experience was fantastic. I would recommend it to anybody. I used the dual knives all the way. It’s hard but not ridiculously so. For reference, a Dark Soul 3 SL1 run is significantly harder.

In my opinion, it’s when you play with an un-upgraded character that you can see the flaws in the game design, especially with bosses. Big no-no for bosses like DPS races are quickly exposed and I can only praise Grime for that:
- Many metroidvanias lean too much into the RPG side and create barriers that make challenge runs either impossible or so ridiculous that you have to resort to exploits and/or play multiple marathons to get through. No such barrier in Grime
- The bosses are really well designed, fair, fun, original and rewarding. No mechanics can be abused. Sure you get the wanky hitbox on occasion but overall it’s really good.

Not that many bosses but I understand the devs are working on that.

A few thoughts:
- It wouldn’t have hurt to have access to the warp right from the start
- The grieving giant is way too far from the respawn point. I know it’s kind of market practice to make the players walk to get back to the bosses but this one’s a bit too much. I actually prefer the way Ys Oath in Felghana and Ys origin did with an immediate “restart the boss” option -> It doesn’t make the game easier. Ys are brutals on higher difficulties.
- The Last boss is a bit too long. I mean in a normal playthrough. And I am fairly sure I nailed pretty much all his weaknesses in the end and how to hurt him as much as possible. - The visibility in the platform phase is a bit off.
- I don’t mean that it’s unfair by any mean but the slow recharging Force (stamina) bar is too much. It creates situation where you have to retreat, especially if parrying isn’t an option and it breaks the flaws of fight. I don’t mean it should be changed cause everything is very well balanced over that.

Thanks for that great game. I wasn’t expecting much and I was pleasantly surprised. It’s one of my favorite combat heavy metroidvania with Hollow Knight and Blasphemous and in quite a few respects you did better than these games.

Looking forward to the new bosses and your future games.

[Yarden]

Hey! Glad you enjoyed it and thank you for taking the time to write all this feedback. :)

My rule of thumb for boss balance was being able to beat them all with all weapon types at level 0 within a reasonably similar speed, without taking a hit.

Regarding the slow recharge, I'm assuming no grow meant no force replenishing traits either, right? Yeah, I can understand how that may kill some of the flow later on.

I'll take all these into consideration, thanks!

[Pnume]

Originally posted by Yarden:

Hey! Glad you enjoyed it and thank you for taking the time to write all this feedback. :)

My rule of thumb for boss balance was being able to beat them all with all weapon types at level 0 within a reasonably similar speed, without taking a hit.

Regarding the slow recharge, I'm assuming no grow meant no force replenishing traits either, right? Yeah, I can understand how that may kill some of the flow later on.

I'll take all these into consideration, thanks!

Thanks for your reply.
I think testing bosses at base level is the best approach.

I'm continuing with with an absolute zero upgrade run ( Lvl 0, Weapon 0, No Growth, Basic breath).

Just beat The Last Performance. It was gruesome. I made quite a few mistake. Took me 3h30 to get there and 2h30 to beat him. The last boss is going to be hell.

https://youtu.be/W-egAon606M

Edit: And done https://youtu.be/u2pyZ86V3jM
This one was really long. I'm still missing 2 minor bosses but they are hardly a challenge.

[Yarden]

Originally posted by Pnume:

Originally posted by Yarden:

Hey! Glad you enjoyed it and thank you for taking the time to write all this feedback. :)

My rule of thumb for boss balance was being able to beat them all with all weapon types at level 0 within a reasonably similar speed, without taking a hit.

Regarding the slow recharge, I'm assuming no grow meant no force replenishing traits either, right? Yeah, I can understand how that may kill some of the flow later on.

I'll take all these into consideration, thanks!

Thanks for your reply.
I think testing bosses at base level is the best approach.

I'm continuing with with an absolute zero upgrade run ( Lvl 0, Weapon 0, No Growth, Basic breath).

Just beat The Last Performance. It was gruesome. I made quite a few mistake. Took me 3h30 to get there and 2h30 to beat him. The last boss is going to be hell.

https://youtu.be/W-egAon606M

Edit: And done https://youtu.be/u2pyZ86V3jM
This one was really long. I'm still missing 2 minor bosses but they are hardly a challenge.

Ooof, well done, that's no easy feat.

If you were doing no damage run then there is the Broken Yr Sword which makes boss fights take like 3 times longer lol, not that I would recommend that, it was only put in for masochists. There is also the Otherwhere set that makes it so probably any boss attack would one-shot you in the lategame.

Either way gj dude, awesome to have players that like it enough to do consecutive runs like that.
Now, if you are a true masochist, I would suggest giving Aeterna Noctis a run.
It has a far greater emphasis on platforming, but regardless, I would say it is without a doubt the hardest Metroidvania in existence by like... 10 times or something. Imagine path of pain HK and Godhome but the game is already that in the first 3~ hours and only gets worse from there up to around 35~ hours.

I personally don't really think that's necessarily a good thing, how harsh and how perfect it requires you to play, but you may appreciate it all the more for it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Pnume]

Originally posted by Yarden:

Originally posted by Pnume:

Thanks for your reply.
I think testing bosses at base level is the best approach.

I'm continuing with with an absolute zero upgrade run ( Lvl 0, Weapon 0, No Growth, Basic breath).

Just beat The Last Performance. It was gruesome. I made quite a few mistake. Took me 3h30 to get there and 2h30 to beat him. The last boss is going to be hell.

https://youtu.be/W-egAon606M

Edit: And done https://youtu.be/u2pyZ86V3jM
This one was really long. I'm still missing 2 minor bosses but they are hardly a challenge.

Ooof, well done, that's no easy feat.

If you were doing no damage run then there is the Broken Yr Sword which makes boss fights take like 3 times longer lol, not that I would recommend that, it was only put in for masochists. There is also the Otherwhere set that makes it so probably any boss attack would one-shot you in the lategame.

Either way gj dude, awesome to have players that like it enough to do consecutive runs like that.
Now, if you are a true masochist, I would suggest giving Aeterna Noctis a run.
It has a far greater emphasis on platforming, but regardless, I would say it is without a doubt the hardest Metroidvania in existence by like... 10 times or something. Imagine path of pain HK and Godhome but the game is already that in the first 3~ hours and only gets worse from there up to around 35~ hours.

I personally don't really think that's necessarily a good thing, how harsh and how perfect it requires you to play, but you may appreciate it all the more for it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's crazy. I didn't even know about Aeterna Noctis existed and I'm very much into that genre. Looks interesting. The art direction seems a bit off but the gameplay looks promising. It's not a Metroidvania but as a plateformer I'll be surprised if it's nearly as hard as Dustforce. I've never been able to beat the last levels. They are just too crazy.

The great thing with challenge run is that you can make games as hard as you want them to be. If they are properly designed. I'm not speedrunner good though and I think I've pretty much reach my limit here. Over 15 min to beat a boss is really tough on my old brain.