Kaine is intersex?

[sammwich]

I have finished A-D and saw, while look at a guide for a side quest, that Kaine is intersex. But she has a camel toe and breasts? I was confused in the memory sequences when it was revealed that she was bullied for being different even before she was possessed. Is this something that was changed from the original?

I was especially surprised, because I thought Emil (at least post-transformation) might be transgender due to his lines just before Fyra and the King's wedding, which would make sense since he merged with his sister's body.

[sammwich]

MalachiX a écrit :

I understand what Yoko Taru was going for but it does feel a bit like it plays to the fetishisation of trans people.

Oh I think it does the opposite and it's pretty clear that was Yoko Taro's intention. The fact that many players finish the game without even noticing that she is intersex is proof of that. Kaine is not a spectacle, an object of pity, or a sex object because she is intersex. If she is a spectacle, it's because she's a badass in a world of NPCs who wander about town asking passing heroes to literally put food on their table. If she is an object of pity, it's because she's a tragic hero who was ready to give up until her friends who showered in affection. If she's a sex object, it's because she chose to dress like one.

Also, I want to emphasize that Kaine is not transgender. She is an intersex person who mostly developed female sexual characteristics. She affirms her identity as female. It's typical for intersex people to have predominantly male or female sexual characteristics. There are no real world hermaphrodites who developed 50/50 male/female sexual characteristics. In fact, in a different and unseemly era, it was routine for transgender children to have surgery to make their genitals more closely resemble the more dominant primary sexual characteristics and this, while deeply unethical, was, for lack of a better word, accurate. Most intersex children who underwent such procedures had no idea they were intersex and the ones who did most frequently learned they were intersex much later in life as a result of seeking fertility treatments for their genetic sterility. If Kaine were transgender, she would not be so affirmative of a female gender identity, which are her predominant sexual characteristics, which include sexual secondary characteristics (indicating a female puberty) such as breasts and feminine skeletal structure.

And now I'm going to say something mean, not because I want to, but because I think the point is worth making. Intersex people are a very invisible minority. By all means continue to diminish them by confusing with them with an entirely unrelated group. And describe an accurate portrayal of them as fetishistic. It's very kind.

[nickpeyon]

Vholran Igniseri a écrit :

Guys. I've looked at her. (For quite a bit, mind you...) And I've looked it up online. Kaine having a ♥♥♥♥ is just a silly rumor.

What your virgin eyes are ACTUALLY seeing is just a perfectly plump ♥♥♥♥♥. A plump ♥♥♥♥♥ doesn't equal a ♥♥♥♥.

Bro, did you play Route E? Right after you kill Hook (Lizard-like boss), when Nier calls her back but then disappears and she keeps sinking.... look at her panties then.

Actually, I'll even put a link here for ya....
Look at 1:40:43

https://youtu.be/gffTWVsv8co?t=6043

[Daddy Kaneki]

nickpeyon a écrit :

Vholran Igniseri a écrit :

Guys. I've looked at her. (For quite a bit, mind you...) And I've looked it up online. Kaine having a ♥♥♥♥ is just a silly rumor.

What your virgin eyes are ACTUALLY seeing is just a perfectly plump ♥♥♥♥♥. A plump ♥♥♥♥♥ doesn't equal a ♥♥♥♥.

Bro, did you play Route E? Right after you kill Hook (Lizard-like boss), when Nier calls her back but then disappears and she keeps sinking.... look at her panties then.

Actually, I'll even put a link here for ya....
Look at 1:40:43

https://youtu.be/gffTWVsv8co?t=6043

I appreciate the link to save me the work, but even here, that's clearly not a penis. If it was, why on earth would you think she leaves it up across her waistline like that. I'm not certain if you're male or female but it is incredibly uncomfortable to keep the penis straight upwards against the abdomen like that.

To me it looks like a crease in the panty but you can interpret it whatever way you want, I'm not trying to change your view.

[TipTopChaos]

She's wearing panties, it would be more uncomfortable not to have it pointing up. There's nothing uncomfortable about that unless you had a boner.

[FentanylWallaby]

Intersex?
This is some new American thing isn't it? ♥♥♥♥ now I have to go look up what new degeneracy those deviants have made up again.

[sammwich]

Doom a écrit :

Intersex?
This is some new American thing isn't it? ♥♥♥♥ now I have to go look up what new degeneracy those deviants have made up again.

"Intersex" is a many decades old term, originating solely in biology, that has nothing to do with social movements. It refers to individuals of a sexually dimorphic species that present with ambiguous sexual organs or characteristics, which are typically non-functional. Intersex conditions are typically the result of abnormal gene expressions during development. Intersex animals often do not complete sexual maturity. It has been observed in nature for thousands of years.

[CrowRising]

sammwich a écrit :

Doom a écrit :

Intersex?
This is some new American thing isn't it? ♥♥♥♥ now I have to go look up what new degeneracy those deviants have made up again.

"Intersex" is a many decades old term, originating solely in biology, that has nothing to do with social movements. It refers to individuals of a sexually dimorphic species that present with ambiguous sexual organs or characteristics, which are typically non-functional. Intersex conditions are typically the result of abnormal gene expressions during development. Intersex animals often do not complete sexual maturity. It has been observed in nature for thousands of years.

Or in laymans terms; She's a woman who was "born" a woman, has female biology, and identifies as a woman, but was also born with both sets of genitals. It's a different thing from the whole transgenderism movement that's been going around lately.

[Entity]

Vholran Igniseri a écrit :

Well, yeah, biologically you're correct, but you were extending it to social structure and that wasn't correct. People CAN define their own identity and you don't have a say in what they choose to be. It's their transdimensional Mind that we all have. We have the right to choose who we want to become and to build ourselves up to that point. Nobody can take that away from anyone else.

One can absolutely make a claim to be whoever they want to be. The biological aspect of it doesn't matter. Our *identities* as a *consciousness* are not tied to the type of body that we have.

You can perceive yourself however you want, and the world around you how you want, but you can not make someone perceive you in the way you want if they do not wish to. You have no “right” that trumps the person next to you, and imagining you do does not change that. Otherwise you then encroach on the “rights” of others to see and react to the world how they want. No one has to tune into the frequency of someone else. See, you say that people can’t even have a “say”: which to me shows a very misguided view yourself, as you clearly think others have no right to speak on things. We do. I identify as a free soul, with my own thoughts, and I will question what I want. You can freely think anything else. So why is it okay for you to elevate yourself to removing the “rights” of people to even speak, while complaining about that very thing?

When you say others have no right to speak, then it becomes clearer why there is a problem. Guess what, if people open their mouth and say something? You can not stop that. If you only wish to give one side the right to speak, then you are the worst kind of bigot- one who actually wishes to remove the rights of people to freely think their own thoughts, while pretending to be progressive. That can come back and bite you - “Live by the sword…” .
You can think what you want, and if you share that, people can respond. It appears it only works one way for you.
You can call yourself a surfboard, but I am not forced to play along. To force me to play along is stamping on my “rights” (though rights are a man-made thing)

Then people wonder why it’s so hard for different groups to be accepted. Many see the hypocrisy of the activists (making a distinction here) on the other side pretending they care about rights, but only one way. It’s statements like that that make people more intolerant, not less. So what part are you really playing in defending people? Are you helping as much as you think, or are you the sort that damages relations and puts people at risk of further intolerance? If a friend says they identify as something, then you do have the ability to question it. You don’t get to control others like that, while pretending you support the freedom to express yourself how you wish. The more smaller tribes we create, the quicker we are lead to violence. Dogmatic tribal thinking is what causes violence. If you say you are ‘x’, then no one else has to play along. You can make any laws you want, but you can not stop people ‘having a say’. It’s up to the person you are talking to if they listen.

Paraphrase: “If rights have to be given, and can be taken away, then they are not rights”. Also, the world is far more complicated than this. Thinking you’ve found yourself shows a level of arrogance, as we walk our whole lives learning new things about ourselves, including who we really are. No carefully created label can box you up, unless you want it to. So why is it okay for you to have a say about what others are allowed to say (I have no idea about your background), but not others? There’s a word for that.

[Daddy Kaneki]

Entity a écrit :

You can perceive yourself however you want, and the world around you how you want, but you can not make someone perceive you in the way you want if they do not wish to. You have no “right” that trumps the person next to you, and imagining you do does not change that. Otherwise you then encroach on the “rights” of others to see and react to the world how they want. No one has to tune into the frequency of someone else.

You misunderstood. I didn't say that you absolutely must treat someone in a way that you're uncomfortable with. I said that you don't have a say in what another person wills themselves to be using their own free will. You can't change or decide that, because you are obviously not in their head or a part of their soul, but that doesn't mean that you are hardbound to treat them the way they want to be treated because you also have free will to decide things.

Or in other words, you have a say in your own actions and you are allowed to question others but you have no say in the way another person thinks about themselves. You CAN say "I don't want to think of you the way you think of yourself," but you have no way to influence their inner thoughts because you aren't in their head, you are only in your own head. Everyone is individual

[sammwich]

CrowRising a écrit :

sammwich a écrit :

"Intersex" is a many decades old term, originating solely in biology, that has nothing to do with social movements. It refers to individuals of a sexually dimorphic species that present with ambiguous sexual organs or characteristics, which are typically non-functional. Intersex conditions are typically the result of abnormal gene expressions during development. Intersex animals often do not complete sexual maturity. It has been observed in nature for thousands of years.

Or in laymans terms; She's a woman who was "born" a woman, has female biology, and identifies as a woman, but was also born with both sets of genitals. It's a different thing from the whole transgenderism movement that's been going around lately.

No, you're a bit off base. Intersex people are quite literally neither male nor female (nor hermaphrodites). Almost all intersex conditions result in total infertility and often they do not complete sexual maturity, which is to say they often do not undergo puberty or develop secondary sexual characteristics such as fully-sized breasts, pubic/facial hair, or a fully sized penis. It is true that most intersex individuals superficially appear more masculine or feminine than ambiguous and there was a period when doctors surgically altered intersex children to appear as the sex they most closely resembled. It is also a bit difficult to speak generally of intersex people's biology, because there are a number of intersex conditions which present in different ways.

Being intersex really has no resemblance to being transgender. It is very, very rare and has no psychological elements. They do not have "both sets," but neither. In fact, what would normally be sexual organs are fundamentally different at the cellular level for most intersex conditions. XY females, for example, appear to have a completely normal female development during childhood, but do not have any secondary sexual development and they have non-functional "gonad" organs rather than sexual organs.

[FentanylWallaby]

sammwich a écrit :

CrowRising a écrit :

Or in laymans terms; She's a woman who was "born" a woman, has female biology, and identifies as a woman, but was also born with both sets of genitals. It's a different thing from the whole transgenderism movement that's been going around lately.

No, you're a bit off base. Intersex people are quite literally neither male nor female (nor hermaphrodites). Almost all intersex conditions result in total infertility and often they do not complete sexual maturity, which is to say they often do not undergo puberty or develop secondary sexual characteristics such as fully-sized breasts, pubic/facial hair, or a fully sized penis. It is true that most intersex individuals superficially appear more masculine or feminine than ambiguous and there was a period when doctors surgically altered intersex children to appear as the sex they most closely resembled. It is also a bit difficult to speak generally of intersex people's biology, because there are a number of intersex conditions which present in different ways.

Being intersex really has no resemblance to being transgender. It is very, very rare and has no psychological elements. They do not have "both sets," but neither. In fact, what would normally be sexual organs are fundamentally different at the cellular level for most intersex conditions. XY females, for example, appear to have a completely normal female development during childhood, but do not have any secondary sexual development and they have non-functional "gonad" organs rather than sexual organs.

That sounds so boring. No wonder Kaine is such an irate ♥♥♥♥♥ she cant get off hahah

[CrowRising]

sammwich a écrit :

No, you're a bit off base. Intersex people are quite literally neither male nor female (nor hermaphrodites). Almost all intersex conditions result in total infertility and often they do not complete sexual maturity, which is to say they often do not undergo puberty or develop secondary sexual characteristics such as fully-sized breasts, pubic/facial hair, or a fully sized penis. It is true that most intersex individuals superficially appear more masculine or feminine than ambiguous and there was a period when doctors surgically altered intersex children to appear as the sex they most closely resembled. It is also a bit difficult to speak generally of intersex people's biology, because there are a number of intersex conditions which present in different ways.

Being intersex really has no resemblance to being transgender. It is very, very rare and has no psychological elements. They do not have "both sets," but neither. In fact, what would normally be sexual organs are fundamentally different at the cellular level for most intersex conditions. XY females, for example, appear to have a completely normal female development during childhood, but do not have any secondary sexual development and they have non-functional "gonad" organs rather than sexual organs.

If this is accurate, it doesn't seem to resemble what's going on with Kaine specifically. While we don't have much to go off of in regards to what exactly is going on in her pants, she seems to be quite developed in regards to typical feminine characteristics to the point that most people would have no issue identifying her as female at a glance. This is especially true given the fact that her outfit leaves little to the imagination. The only abnormality is the fact that in addition to her seemingly fully developed female body, she has a rather noticeable male part visible in certain scenes. This brings into question whether "Intersex" is the correct term to describe her, or if another term such as "Hermaphrodite" might be more on the mark.

[edthpa]

Note that "intersex" is a very broad condition. There are many variations that are considered intersex. Many ARE fertile, though some of those may not be readily capable of bearing a child or fertilizing an egg. Such as ovaries but no uterus.

The most that can be said of Kaine is that she has some level of readily visible genital ambiguity (it's one of the reasons she was bullied as a kid). But nothing was ever specified.

Also note that there are no fully fertile human hermaphrodites. Those who aren't infertile with both types of reproductive tissues only have one type functional, usually female. But they are EXTREMELY rare.

[HAUSER]

The best of 2 worlds ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[gigi]

I have my say too: supposedly in this game the BROTHER comes to help. But then the brother is quite obviously a woman. I think maybe in Japan they don't take this seriously and hence they don't have too many babies like most countries I have been to Japan often (for business) and thought the ppl were incredibly neat, helpful etc and so clean - I was impressed. I did hear they do not marry 'foreigners" though and I suppose I now know why.