@Phil - Don't abandon the DD series, bring it back to life and do it right.

[Joker]

@Phil,

Can you just start on DD3 already and start with a community first concept and build a game we all can enjoy. I will gladly throw money at a development studio that can be honest about their mistakes and can move past any mis-steps they have had. Building games is a passion for many developers but it's also a business and as a profound supporter of the DD series I still believe in it and it's model to truly be as unique experience in the genre.

Don't go sideways on some of these other genre's like moba non-sense. CG has a strong background in the TDRPG arena where no-one I've seen comes close to developing what the DD series offers.

So even if you tidy up DDA and wind down that project, do something "right" with the series and give the community a true successor.

I think you'll find you have support and the more honest and transparent feedback you provide the community I believe you'll have that continued support.

[Philamancer]

While I appreciate the support, DD3 is not on the table, as much as I'd love to do it but to do it properly would take an enormous amount of time that is not possible with the current team size or funding. As such taking on such a project would only result in a rushed game that won't live up to the expectations that people would expect from a DD3 and will only do more harm than good.

The goal with the next project is to scale back and be realistic about our limits and do something smaller scope so we can focus on making the core gameplay fun and enjoyable rather than a project that is overscoped and promised to the moon. As well as like you said being getting community involvement with public playtests and surveys from the beginning instead of after release when it will be too late to act on.

[Valthejean]

Originally posted by Philamancer:

While I appreciate the support, DD3 is not on the table, as much as I'd love to do it but to do it properly would take an enormous amount of time that is not possible with the current team size or funding. As such taking on such a project would only result in a rushed game that won't live up to the expectations that people would expect from a DD3 and will only do more harm than good.

The goal with the next project is to scale back and be realistic about our limits and do something smaller scope so we can focus on making the core gameplay fun and enjoyable rather than a project that is overscoped and promised to the moon. As well as like you said being getting community involvement with public playtests and surveys from the beginning instead of after release when it will be too late to act on.

Do we have any more details on this project? Because I'm going to be honest, if it's not DD3, and instead going to be something smaller like Going Rogue....I don't mean to sound rude, but is that really a good idea? Going Rogue's problem wasn't that it was unpolished and rushed (although that certainly didn't help it.) It was an insult to players who were supporting DDA and then you went and made this side game out of nowhere.

Like I'm going to be really honest, and I don't mean it to be cruel but I don't think lying about it would benefit you at all. This sounds like a terrible idea the more and more I hear about it. I'm really struggling to understand why this is a better move than, you know, delivering on what DDA should have been. It's already hard enough to support whatever this next project is, but if it's not a tower defense looterarpg, that's pretty much a hard no from me. I can't speak for other players, maybe you have data that I don't and the majority of the DD community really wants something that has nothing to do with DD.

I just really don't get it. If you want to do something smaller and scaled back...why is DDA not that option? It would take CONSIDERABLY less resources to release a dlc for DDA than to build a brand new project. And I guarantee to you that if this new project is going to be an asset flip like Going Rogue was, you're not going to be getting a warm reception to this. Maybe I'm just crazy here, but a redemption story ala No Man's Sky for DDA seems WAY more within your reach than yet another new game out of the blue which came at the cost of developing something else.

[Philamancer]

Originally posted by Valthejean:

Do we have any more details on this project? Because I'm going to be honest, if it's not DD3

DDA won't have a No Man Sky story, and it's not realistic to expect, they essentially had a unlimited budget with the massive number of copies sold at launch and as such they also accomplished what they've done by releasing free content updates which is the route we've been going. Even releasing a paid DLC is not going to not going to have a return on investment like you might think it would have, as most players have moved on or made their minds up. If anything that will put us in a position where we have to redirect all of our efforts on putting all the new content behind a paywall.

So that said, we have the option to keep developing DDA and take the risk of it somehow making a comeback which the odds are extremely low, or we take everything we've learned with the project, the good and bad, put our best foot forward, acknowledge the mistakes and work on a new project that can actually be done correctly without having to rush the project because we waited too long hoping for a comeback.

As for the new project, details have not been given yet and will be on our July 21st twitch livestream and is not a copy or variation of DD1, DD2, DDA or DDGR. It will also be a completely new codebase that isn't a continuation from one of those projects.

[Valthejean]

Originally posted by Philamancer:

DDA won't have a No Man Sky story, and it's not realistic to expect, they essentially had a unlimited budget with the massive number of copies sold at launch and as such they also accomplished what they've done by releasing free content updates which is the route we've been going. Even releasing a paid DLC is not going to not going to have a return on investment like you might think it would have, as most players have moved on or made their minds up. If anything that will put us in a position where we have to redirect all of our efforts on putting all the new content behind a paywall.

So that said, we have the option to keep developing DDA and take the risk of it somehow making a comeback which the odds are extremely low, or we take everything we've learned with the project, the good and bad, put our best foot forward, acknowledge the mistakes and work on a new project that can actually be done correctly without having to rush the project because we waited too long hoping for a comeback.

As for the new project, details have not been given yet and will be on our July 21st twitch livestream and is not a copy or variation of DD1, DD2, DDA or DDGR. It will also be a completely new codebase that isn't a continuation from one of those projects.

I mean...I fundamentally disagree, but it's not my place to make this decision. All I can say is that the openness and honesty only goes so far. With whatever this new project is, you're never going to be able to dispel the belief that it's just another Going Rogue. I just hope the team understands how much more this project is going to suffer when DDA is left in the state it is, how much more of an up-hill climb this will be. We didn't want another DDE, but now we're at this point again. It's going to be extremely hard to sell us on a brand new game with this kind of track record. While No Man's Sky isn't quite comparable for the reasons you pointed out, the reason I brought it up is because no one would ever have bought from that company again if not for them bringing back that game from the muck.

I just think it's extremely optimistic to think a new project is the right idea here. Like I'm trying to be as reasonable as I can here, because I understand DDA didn't perform well, but to say I'm hesitant to even interact with this next project would be a huge understatement. I just don't have any faith in a product when the product that I actually *wanted* got left in the dust. I don't have a problem putting my money where my mouth is, I bought this game at least like 5 times to give to different friends to support it, I don't mind paid dlc (but I do hate microtransactions like in DD2.) I own every DLC for Total War: Warhammer, because I'm happy to support that company when they make a game I enjoy to play and keep supporting it. But I guess I can't speak for the community in this regard.

I guess at this point my only hope is that I hope your project does well enough that it will eventually funnel back to DDA one day.

[dizzydiana]

I too understand the distrust towards any new project. Lets face it every game so far was left in an unfinished state at some point or another. DD1 on consoles, DDE, DD2 with constant loading screens on PS4 for far too long and now DDA. I backed DD2 hoping things would work out but the direction it went in just before leaving Beta hmm, then I backed DDA bought multiple keys most of which i even gave away to members of the community as I really wanted to bring as many on board and support CG. There were many mistakes with DDA and at least they are willing to own up to them now, but DDGR was a sour grape if ever I saw one. releasing that knowing we were all sitting hungry for DDA stuff well I am sure anyone can imagine. It is rather difficult for me to have any faith left that any new project will be released in a finished state and that there wont be dumb design decisions only aimed at the loudest 1% of the community yet again.

I really am not sure if I just had enough or still hoping they can pull of a miracle and restore what little faith I have. For the most part I love the DD series even though each game has Issues but I dont think I can say the same for the overall approach the devs have had over the years. I will give Phil his due he did try to do something but he is right its too little too late. When some features were being suggested and concerns were raised they stubbornly went ahead anyway. Which wasnt new the same approach happened in the previous game. They simply didnt want to listen to the concerns they thought they knew better than the people willing to give up time to help them out and actually spend thousands of hours on their games.

They spent too long giving us any content we wanted and too much time on content nobody asked for. We liked DDA during Early access for the most part and it did tick that nostalgia box. The problem was then they decided to throw things in the game like Rifted Mode great Idea bad design, and who in the community asked for something like that to be put in? Anyone? Sure we are all used to it now, but really instead of new maps and story lets throw in a system that makes 80% of loot pointless and think thats a good idea?

its good they are willing to listen to the community for this next project, but that isnt quite enough I am sorry. "sorry we did wrong we will do better" at this point they have said it far too many times How many times do they really expect another chance? The problem now is even if this next project is aimed at a new audience I can bet anything it will get ratioed fast with posts and whatever form fans of previous titles extremely angry over their record.

There are some like me with a small almost idiotic hope it works out, but I do have to ask why just why should I give the devs another chance with this new project at all? I cannot stand to be let down again. I have tried wherever possible to be respectful and in their corner but also giving critique in the vain hope that they can turn things around before it got to this point.

The other thing is considering the history and not being all that long ago we had surveys on how the community wanted to go forward with expectations set. The next thing is this? It is extremely difficult to persuade the community that we were not fooled in some way and the timing of everything just stinks. If at least one of the outstanding KS expectations were met first. But no! We might not even get split screen on console which to me is a joke especially for xbox and playstation - its where most local co-op actually happens. Its almost incredulous. To be quite frank I seriously doubt anything other than the tavern storage and crystal transmogs will actually get into DDA. Well maybe the KS in game titles although those were not mentioned anywhere in the news.........

I have tried to come to a firm decision if I am just out and no longer interested in anything they produce going forward. I saw them revive DD2 and bring in a new DLC to DD1, so there is some hope that some point it might happen for DDA? The problem is hanging on to any hope a waste of my time and I should just say farewell and be done with it. My son introduced me to DD1 on the PS3 back in 2010 and I instantly fell in love with the game. I am by no mean a top player, but I spent thousands of hours on every title bar DDE, even on the parts I didnt like. There was still enough there to keep me interested and have fun until eventually the titles werent fun anymore. DDA in fun, I am no where near max in any stat, but I feel whats the point I have completed all the survivals and mixed mode maps in Dune Eater difficulty already. Other than trophies what is there for me? I am not even a trophy hunter or collector with nothing new for the game and my distinct dislike of a few elements like Rifted Mode, I dont really have the energy. I might change my mind somewhere down the line.

Sorry for the length of this post and I hope I have not seemed resentful or such. I just wanted to put my thoughts down and hopefully the community and the devs understand where I am coming from.

[Barnibo]

Originally posted by Philamancer:

So that said, we have the option to keep developing DDA and take the risk of it somehow making a comeback which the odds are extremely low, or we take everything we've learned with the project, the good and bad, put our best foot forward, acknowledge the mistakes and work on a new project that can actually be done correctly without having to rush the project because we waited too long hoping for a comeback.

See ... that's my problem. What you say is totally right and i'm afraid that DDA will never make a comeback ... But when you say "move on and learn from the bad", i feel completly let down.

I started with DD1 which I loved. Then I went to DD2 which was nice but at somepoint some drastic changes and updates to the core gameplay drew me away (the tower range update/rework completly killed it for me). Also, i felt the cash grab vibe so much.

Then DDA came and i was so happy, I played it and was quickly disappointed ... I came back to it recently to find nice updates, things that improved. You earned my trust back. Then I read this only a few months later ...
DD1 is too old and DD2 is no longer my thing. So without DDA, no more DD for me.

I'm going to be honnest, I didn't follow the whole story and who did what. Maybe the people that were responsible are gone. And you seem to genuinly care and respond to us. But the Dungeon Defenders franchise is dead to me, I have no trust left in it and won't buy anything until a LOT and i mean REALLY A LOT of positive reviews prove the new projects are complete from the sart.

That makes me sad cause i see you trying to communicate and i love the franchise, but that's it for me, too many disappointments.

[Joker]

In all honestly abandoning the DD series for me at least will have me abandoning my support of the studio. They should have refunded anyone purchases DDGR...a complete spit in the face of fans. If you don't stop wasting time with projects that ignore what your community wants I'd expect even more to abandon your efforts and then you'll end up developing nothing...

Sad state of play for DD....

[Valthejean]

Originally posted by Barnibo:

See ... that's my problem. What you say is totally right and i'm afraid that DDA will never make a comeback ... But when you say "move on and learn from the bad", i feel completly let down.

I started with DD1 which I loved. Then I went to DD2 which was nice but at somepoint some drastic changes and updates to the core gameplay drew me away (the tower range update/rework completly killed it for me). Also, i felt the cash grab vibe so much.

Then DDA came and i was so happy, I played it and was quickly disappointed ... I came back to it recently to find nice updates, things that improved. You earned my trust back. Then I read this only a few months later ...
DD1 is too old and DD2 is no longer my thing. So without DDA, no more DD for me.

I'm going to be honnest, I didn't follow the whole story and who did what. Maybe the people that were responsible are gone. And you seem to genuinly care and respond to us. But the Dungeon Defenders franchise is dead to me, I have no trust left in it and won't buy anything until a LOT and i mean REALLY A LOT of positive reviews prove the new projects are complete from the sart.

That makes me sad cause i see you trying to communicate and i love the franchise, but that's it for me, too many disappointments.

I agree with a lot of this. When they sent out that survey a month or so ago, that seemed to me like things were really optimistic. I should have been more concerned when they said that things would be smaller updates, but it sounded like they were going to be more frequent. Honestly, I would have been fine with that. DDA has a ton of great ideas that just need more polish to them.

I've been going through the game again, starting fresh. Because I wanted to gather my thoughts about the game. It breaks my heart to see what's happening...

[Joker]

I was extremely excited over the proposed system to allow Tower customization....seems like that's all just a fond memory and boy how things can change in a few weeks....

[Valthejean]

Originally posted by Joker:

I was extremely excited over the proposed system to allow Tower customization....seems like that's all just a fond memory and boy how things can change in a few weeks....

So much the same. That's why I keep saying that DDA's problem wasn't ideas, just unfinished ones. The rune system is a great concept...once you have more than one per tower. Same with the item set bonuses, great idea, just there's not a lot of them and fusion gear invalidates like 80% of them.

[Valthejean]

So then....THIS is what you think is "learning from your mistakes?"

You're literally trying yet another roguelike, this time a bullet heaven, with reused assets....AGAIN? You all realize that Going Rogue is still not "released" right? I have....so many things I want to say out of frustration....SO MUCH. I'll just say this: if THIS is the lesson you learned, you learned the wrong F******** lessons. Where did you even GET the feedback for this trainwreck of a decision? Did someone on your team say "Hey Vampire Survivors is successful, just make that?" Did you forget that DD2 was almost a catastrophe because "Hey League of Legends is successful, just make that?"

[Edit] For context, this was announced on the DD2 page, not even on DDA lol....
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/236110/view/512950040394727465?l=english

DDA deserved better. CG, you are terrible stewards of what was once a great IP. I can't even code and I could have done better.

[Cranky]

Originally posted by Valthejean:

So then....THIS is what you think is "learning from your mistakes?"

You're literally trying yet another roguelike, this time a bullet heaven, with reused assets....AGAIN? You all realize that Going Rogue is still not "released" right? I have....so many things I want to say out of frustration....SO MUCH. I'll just say this: if THIS is the lesson you learned, you learned the wrong F******** lessons. Where did you even GET the feedback for this trainwreck of a decision? Did someone on your team say "Hey Vampire Survivors is successful, just make that?" Did you forget that DD2 was almost a catastrophe because "Hey League of Legends is successful, just make that?"

[Edit] For context, this was announced on the DD2 page, not even on DDA lol....
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/236110/view/512950040394727465?l=english

DDA deserved better. CG, you are terrible stewards of what was once a great IP. I can't even code and I could have done better.

THANK YOU!

Seriously, I hope Phil or someone on the marketing team sees this.

[Polarcrest]

Originally posted by Philamancer:

Originally posted by Valthejean:

Do we have any more details on this project? Because I'm going to be honest, if it's not DD3

DDA won't have a No Man Sky story, and it's not realistic to expect, they essentially had a unlimited budget with the massive number of copies sold at launch and as such they also accomplished what they've done by releasing free content updates which is the route we've been going. Even releasing a paid DLC is not going to not going to have a return on investment like you might think it would have, as most players have moved on or made their minds up. If anything that will put us in a position where we have to redirect all of our efforts on putting all the new content behind a paywall.

So that said, we have the option to keep developing DDA and take the risk of it somehow making a comeback which the odds are extremely low, or we take everything we've learned with the project, the good and bad, put our best foot forward, acknowledge the mistakes and work on a new project that can actually be done correctly without having to rush the project because we waited too long hoping for a comeback.

As for the new project, details have not been given yet and will be on our July 21st twitch livestream and is not a copy or variation of DD1, DD2, DDA or DDGR. It will also be a completely new codebase that isn't a continuation from one of those projects.

Is it not the kickstarter for a vampire survivor knockoff? Defenders of Etheria?

I mean, I hope it's good, I don't want you all to fail but a cash grab is all this is. You aren't making a game you have passion for, you are making a game copying other peoples ideas just using your games skin. You had something unique. This was YOUR space. Only orcs must die was a competitor and that game is lame. It's also free on gamepass.

Instead of always looking for the next thing, perfect what you have. Put this for free and charge for skins and dlc. Get it on gamepass for free. Bolster this game. Going rogue? Some vampire survivors knockoff isn't gonna do it. (I of course hope I'm wrong)

[Joker]

Originally posted by Cranky:

Originally posted by Valthejean:

So then....THIS is what you think is "learning from your mistakes?"

You're literally trying yet another roguelike, this time a bullet heaven, with reused assets....AGAIN? You all realize that Going Rogue is still not "released" right? I have....so many things I want to say out of frustration....SO MUCH. I'll just say this: if THIS is the lesson you learned, you learned the wrong F******** lessons. Where did you even GET the feedback for this trainwreck of a decision? Did someone on your team say "Hey Vampire Survivors is successful, just make that?" Did you forget that DD2 was almost a catastrophe because "Hey League of Legends is successful, just make that?"

[Edit] For context, this was announced on the DD2 page, not even on DDA lol....
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/236110/view/512950040394727465?l=english

DDA deserved better. CG, you are terrible stewards of what was once a great IP. I can't even code and I could have done better.

THANK YOU!

Seriously, I hope Phil or someone on the marketing team sees this.

Sadly they do see this but they don't care. I've been a fan since DD1 and in EVERY SINGLE RELEASE since then they ignore the community, they consistently break things that never needed fixed and don't move the TD genre forward like they did in DD1.

They own this space no other TD's can touch them if you ask me but again with every passing dev cycle the constantly ignore their fans and continue to destroy something that was so unique and fun.

I will not be buying an more games from the studio. They are holistically broken and are 1000% tone deaf to their fans. I'm a developer and honestly I've really though about starting a project that would be in the spirit of the TDRPG genre because nothing really good exists and although making money is great and all It would be developed with passion of what the TDRPG "could be". Time is the only factor that's stopping me. Something to look forward to in my retirement because obviously other dev studios could care less about fans in this space.

[Valthejean]

Originally posted by Joker:

Sadly they do see this but they don't care. I've been a fan since DD1 and in EVERY SINGLE RELEASE since then they ignore the community, they consistently break things that never needed fixed and don't move the TD genre forward like they did in DD1.

They own this space no other TD's can touch them if you ask me but again with every passing dev cycle the constantly ignore their fans and continue to destroy something that was so unique and fun.

I will not be buying an more games from the studio. They are holistically broken and are 1000% tone deaf to their fans. I'm a developer and honestly I've really though about starting a project that would be in the spirit of the TDRPG genre because nothing really good exists and although making money is great and all It would be developed with passion of what the TDRPG "could be". Time is the only factor that's stopping me. Something to look forward to in my retirement because obviously other dev studios could care less about fans in this space.

Well if you ever do go through with it, hit me up. DunDef scratches an itch no other game does, and it's shameful that CG has treated it so horribly.