Reponse to the developers

[Azero]

Developers responded to my review, and I honestly debated with myself if I was going to respond, or not. I decided there were just too many points the developers made which had to be clarified. I found this to be the easiest way for me to do it, and as a bonus it would let people discuss it, or rip me a new one if they so decide to.

This is my review: Link.
And this is their response:

Originally posted by Chromatic Games developer Posted: 8 Aug:

We understand your thoughts on this change, but there's more to it than just making it work better on the Nintendo Switch. Here are some of the reasons the attack rate change was made:
- To improve performance on low end PCs, medium end PCs, and Xbox, not just Switch.
- It was impossible to balance any future content, as there was not an attack rate cap, meaning you stayed attacking at impossible to control speeds.
- There was no way to give players the ability to play active combat if they chose to do so, because towers would just be too powerful late game to justify it.
- Adjusted damage and balanced it to make players stronger than before, and beef up the new content.
- The amount of VFX made active combat and seeing what was going on in the game impossible to see what was going on for a lot of players.
- Comparable games to ours are similar in rate, if not lowered, due to these specific issues, and 0.5 second is still pretty fast.
We're a small team, we don't have the luxury of a AAA team to throw dozens of programmers to find every optimization possible, though we do try our best to bring continued optimizations. This change made sense as our survey feedback showed that 90%+ of players were fine with the change in a gameplay sense, so we moved forward with it too make the game a better experience for all defenders and get the game to them as fast as well could.
We're sorry ultimately that you don't like this change, but we made sure to do what we could to retain player power (giving players more power as a result), appeal to the vast majority of our playerbase, and still provide the best experience we could for all players (while continuing to add free content and improved optimizations).

First of the devs makes a point on that this change will improve other players experience who has low-end specs, and not just the Switch. While my heart goes out to those who have low end specs; there is a limit to how low you can set the bar, and after you've enabled players to lower their graphics to the minimum of what the game allows then that is where it either becomes a code optimisation aspect, or a gameplay change. Graphic options are optional, and gameplay could be too, but not the ones which have been decided to be put into this game. They affect everyone, and there have already been many changes like monsters having low frame rate animation when they exit the gates, monster density reductions, and now the attack speed. Yet the game still lags on a Switch( Example, with Source [forums.dungeondefenders.com]) to a point where I'm not sure how Nintendo is okay with it, and if they are not and decide to put their foot down on this then what is next? More mob density reduction?

When you set the bar too low without being able to optimise your game code-wise this is what happens, and we tried to explain why it was a bad idea for the future of this game. For instance the Summoner is one of the most iconic, and sought after characters from DD1. Now you can't even implement him without a serious rework. Not because of a balance issue, but the reason now simply is that there is no choice anymore because you can't make more towers due to the fact that it would impact performance on a Switch. Let me be clear here and say that the big issue here is the underlying shackle to a bar set too low which limits the potential of this game, and leads to downgrading gameplay changes in the current game like the attack speed reduction, and said shackle was decidedly put on all of us after the game had already been sold to us as a fully released PC game.

Secondly, the devs mentions some gameplay reasons.

Originally posted by Chromatic Games developer Posted: 8 Aug:

- It was impossible to balance any future content, as there was not an attack rate cap, meaning you stayed attacking at impossible to control speeds.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Is it that that attack rate was infinite scaling, and that attack speed was impossible for you to control? No one is asking for a linear growth to attack speed scaling with the attack rate stat. This has been balanced before, and it's called logarithmic functions, or diminishing returns. You end up with stats in the higher range giving less attack speed than your first points, but you don't hard cap it at 0.5 seconds. Slow attacks causes new balance issues in themselves.

Originally posted by Chromatic Games developer Posted: 8 Aug:

- The amount of VFX made active combat and seeing what was going on in the game impossible to see what was going on for a lot of players

I mean, really.. Was it this bad? It's not like we had a million towers even if we had high attack speed. If we're talking about visual impairs then the bright glow colours on the Huntress trap circles are more of a visual mess. Personal opinion, but if anything the fireworks made the low amount of towers feel more impactful, and I'd like to believe this was an issue for less people than for how many this change caused issues for. No point in me arguing this any further since I don't have your feedback statistics.

Originally posted by Chromatic Games developer Posted: 8 Aug:

- There was no way to give players the ability to play active combat if they chose to do so, because towers would just be too powerful late game to justify it.

We already did play active combat in the endgame, and it was perfectly viable. In the endgame you'd aim for a hybrid monk, and if in multiplayer anyone who didn't build went on a buffer/DPS. The end game had these things, although when the content is too easy, or there was no boss or reason to hop on a DPS/hybrid then you decidedly could just afk and let the towers do their thing. If there ever was an issue then it was that there was only a very few specific weapons which could enabled DPS classes to be good and they mostly dropped from Massacre mode and beyond, so during progress trying to get to endgame DPS chars were under performing, and in the end game we don't have designed endgame content like the map Sky City(proper boss fights towers couldn't handle or struggled with) from DD1 which incentivised getting a proper DPS character. The towers wasn't the issue here. It's the lack of content for endgame, and viable weapons from early game to make DPS chars from early on do more than poke damage.

To everyone else; like I mentioned in my review I just wanted to make a fair warning to the community of a big change to this product which I felt everyone were entitled to know about. If you've read my review, and you're still fine with what has been done and you're having a blast ingame then all the more power to you, and I'm genuinely happy for you. My warning is for people like me who are not having fun anymore, and are not fine with the changes. I've read my review again, and I do agree I was taken emotional by the changes, and I probably still am. However, that being said, I do still believe what I wrote to be true, and it needed to be said. Feel free to share your opinion with other readers. This was a lengthy one, and I apologise for that.

[Shiro]

I reached the attack speed cap on 2 apprentice towers in 6 hours of solo gameplay over the free weekend, and this coming from someone with hundreds of hours and near 100% completion of dungeon defenders 1.

The ludicrous attack speeds is pretty much the endgame experience, and it honestly just feels bad to have towers capped to fire at the same rate as eachother.

I think really they should just scrap the attack rate limit and instead improve graphical settings for lower spec users/just change how many projectiles get rendered on consoles instead of making this change to every platform.

[dizzydiana]

The speed change and other changes to the game has for some created some hate and it is understandable. i feel allot of games that are multi-platform have similar issues for pc players, I have seen ports to PC from consoles where there is a response in how they werent "improved" in terms of fps or whatever for pc. There seems to be some pc players who expect a certain "standard" from their games and get very frustrated when the port is lower than that. it is difficult to give the exact same product on every platform and usually pc games have access to more settings than any console since no 2 pc set ups are exactly the same. i also think some players have been around like me from the Kickstarter project and have had seen many other frustrations with the game and the devs. These changes for some i think were "the straw that broke the camels back".

Having the promise of cross play and the intention to release the game of the switch does limit the devs with some descicisions, but I dont want a repeat of dd1 for dda where consoles get left out entilrely from updates or 90% of the content or what happened with ps4 and dd2 where it was largely unplayable for (some) onslaught floors, regular infinite loading screens etc. We must also remember the ORIGINAL plan was to release a DD game for the Switch ONLY. I am still waiting for my Switch key since I live in the Uk and who knows when I will get my key for PS. It is frustrating to many consoles players to hear all this frustration when they cant even play the damn game yet. If they have rebalanced the game and adjusted it to allow for future content then I am not sure how bad these changes really are. We are not aware of what the future content will be, all these episodes will be free unlike DD1 where we had to buy the game piece by piece $2 or $10 each time as they released pre 2012 collection.

I am not a fan of these changes either, but if i dont have to buy each episode as it comes out and can pick the game up from where i left off on any platform I will be pretty happy. I had backed KS and bought all the keys i did so i could hop from platform to platform on the promise of cross saves and keeping all platforms as similar as possible. I understand that many here will probably only play on PC and might not care about players like myself, but please lets wait and see where the game ends up with all future content and future changes and then judge it. if we were to go back in time to when summoner, EV, etc came out for DD1 all which had to be bought separately and yet the game was balanced around these additions so it felt very much P2W if you didnt buy the dlcs. I just hope they stick to the actual game content additions remaining free and only cosmetics being paid dlc. without any real road map telling us what additional enemies or future alterations to rifted mode actually are it makes it difficult to judge how these changes are a good or bad thing going forward.

[Iceshotgun]

I have tried for days to put together my thoughts on everything as well and you have done a great job summing up the same thoughts i had.

At the current state of everything there is no way i can think of for them to add the summoner. The tower cap can't really allow it. But its more than just that....since they changed how gear effects your character it makes his dual use of pets worthless. Could they make a custom weapon and off hand item for him to fix stats instead of pets? Sure, but with a max tower limit and framerate issues it doesn't really matter if the game just cant handle the extra stuff.

I can complain about how bad the inventory system is and the lack of folders for actually putting items in but i feel this is already been beat to death.

There are things I love about this version of the game compared to the original. But the UI, gear, enemies, and general lack of meaningful content and endgame make this feel more like a early access beta than a full release product.

[Valthejean]

I like how rifted mode was advertised as a "choice between active and passive play." And yet here we are, once again the Devs saying they don't like how people choose to play their game. So now it's OUR fault that tower rates have been capped, because they're completely incapable of considering how to make the game more engaging and fun. I'm really sickened by this response. I've given this game so much benefit of the doubt, bent over backwards to try and find reasonable accommodations, but these devs are just toxic. Maybe if they would take a few moments outside of their insider's discord they'd have a better understanding on how their playerbase plays.

[Kporal]

My opinion is easy and fast, as an initial pc game, why WE must be downgraded for consol ?
I mean, ported game always make pc player angry as theire is always less option, performance or possibility with bad control.
Don't get me wrong, i love the DD franchise, but ... yeah i don't understand that kind of choice.

So final question, why creating a PC game, to downgrade it for console user ? huhu then lower the game price and give us something ...

[Lavi]

@dizzydiana you describe perfectly why these developers suck at making games. Perhaps they need to rehire the staff they had when they created dd1, because it clearly plays better than dda.

[IconiX]

Let me play devil's advocate here and say people are too hung up on the "game is a switch port" and ignoring everything else. If the devs said we're capping def rate, and brought no mention of the switch would people be complaining as much?

The game still works, the levels aren't broken, you can still clear the stages using different strategies, isn't that what people wanted? Did you honestly like the grind? Farming a speedy gemstone? Requiring a buff monk? Cutting down the mobs is good, stages take less time to finish. The game was changed to accommodate for the rate cap, it's not like everything was left as is and the cap was set at 0.5.

I just came back after a year, and honestly I don't even remember what the tower rate was like, and don't really care because it still works. Imagine yourself a new person just starting out the game, rate stops at 0.5? cool I'll focus on other stats.

Also people keep mentioning the summoner without realizing how bad the whole separate DU issue was, it was an insane power creep why WOULDN'T you place summoner minions in a level? It practically became a must in later difficulties, and frankly making a single class a must for every stage is just lame.

Buff beams and minions create power jumps rather than power creep, the highest difficulty is only as difficult as the strongest build, we don't want a new difficulty with every class release. The rate cap reduces the power gap between the towers allowing for longer game life.

[bc304daedalus]

as someone on a lower end pc ( about 8 years old now if not 10 ) i did the smart thing back then when i could aford to upgrade and made sure i had enough ram at 32gigs ( way over kill back then but these days its paying off) i do apricate some changes and others not so much my game now runs at about 32% usage on my i5 compaired to update 1.4 which generally run my cpu at 100% usage still felt fine even if my pc was screaming at me. but a better pc with same stats i had in game would get towers to shoot 0.02 seconds faster because there pc was better they was able to gain more advantage be it only small.
some towers im slightly more anoyed about changes than other traps are now impossible even with buff beam to reach speed cap on even with 13k def rate ( over sight to changing but not changing formular). ele auras now caped to 0.50 yes they now gain a fair amount of damage from over stacking rate but they no longer clear most mobs in bonus waves where as before with 0.10 rate my ele auras would shread most things in game. which to me feels like a huge nerf to ele auras, ( lightning tower is now my go to rather than ele aura as they can clear most mobs fairly fast specially if u leave portals open on the new maps).
dsts are still really good even with the new speed cap and can clear any map in the game still as main sorce of damage just require higher stats. but i shall stick to havng fun on my warden with his blossoms and wisps as they are both proberly equally just as good with the right stats and build.

I can see us getting new towers into the game we have already been told dd1 summoner is not coming or will be the very last hero added due to how unbalanced it was on dd1 having its own build pool and noone wants the dd2 version of the summoner as that was hot garbage compaired to the dd1 version.

will admit i do kinda enjoy now running around on a rouge compaired to pre episode 1 id sit back on a munk and chill

[Valthejean]

Originally posted by IconiX:

Let me play devil's advocate here and say people are too hung up on the "game is a switch port" and ignoring everything else. If the devs said we're capping def rate, and brought no mention of the switch would people be complaining as much?

Yes.

They did it in the DD2 beta and that's why I stopped playing that game too.

[pixxlated]

Originally posted by IconiX:

Let me play devil's advocate here and say people are too hung up on the "game is a switch port" and ignoring everything else. If the devs said we're capping def rate, and brought no mention of the switch would people be complaining as much?

Honestly, yeah, I actually would be complaining. A lot. One, it's very dissatisfying. Two, it limits playstyles. If I'm playing a tower defense game and I prefer the tower aspect, who genuinely cares? Let me have crazy fast towers. As long as it's as viable as everything else. I want to be able to do some absolutely crazy ♥♥♥♥ and only be limited by my imagination. Also, FORCEFULLY downgrading the game for EVERYONE, regardless of their PC specs, is such a terrible move and honestly I don't think even Activision would be that ridiculous.

[B166ER]

Originally posted by IconiX:

Let me play devil's advocate here and say people are too hung up on the "game is a switch port" and ignoring everything else. If the devs said we're capping def rate, and brought no mention of the switch would people be complaining as much?

The game still works, the levels aren't broken, you can still clear the stages using different strategies, isn't that what people wanted? Did you honestly like the grind? Farming a speedy gemstone? Requiring a buff monk? Cutting down the mobs is good, stages take less time to finish. The game was changed to accommodate for the rate cap, it's not like everything was left as is and the cap was set at 0.5.

I just came back after a year, and honestly I don't even remember what the tower rate was like, and don't really care because it still works. Imagine yourself a new person just starting out the game, rate stops at 0.5? cool I'll focus on other stats.

Also people keep mentioning the summoner without realizing how bad the whole separate DU issue was, it was an insane power creep why WOULDN'T you place summoner minions in a level? It practically became a must in later difficulties, and frankly making a single class a must for every stage is just lame.

Buff beams and minions create power jumps rather than power creep, the highest difficulty is only as difficult as the strongest build, we don't want a new difficulty with every class release. The rate cap reduces the power gap between the towers allowing for longer game life.

> Let me play devil's advocate here and say people are too hung up on the "game is a switch port" and ignoring everything else.

You mean "ignoring everything else" like the endlessly growing list of "soon to come" features that are still missing, like e.g. split-screen gaming, a promised CORE-FEATURE during their Kickstarter?


> Imagine yourself a new person just starting out the game, rate stops at 0.5? cool I'll focus on other stats.

A completely new person who never played a single video game in their life might indeed behave like that, but everyone with enough video game experience instinctively knows that something shady is going on if a single stat is artificially locked at a specific number, but every other stat isn't.


This game is just another one on my list of train-wrecks games which all are worth observing as they burn themselves to the ground.

[Valthejean]

Originally posted by B166ER:

> Imagine yourself a new person just starting out the game, rate stops at 0.5? cool I'll focus on other stats.

A completely new person who never played a single video game in their life might indeed behave like that, but everyone with enough video game experience instinctively knows that something shady is going on if a single stat is artificially locked at a specific number, but every other stat isn't.

I want to add onto this one. This patch LITERALLY did a revamp to remove stats from gear that were either worthless, or hard capped. Casting rate, projectile numbers, reload speed. All of these stats were removed and streamlined based on player level, SPECIFICALLY because the developers realized that it's not fun to have a stat you can put points into and get nothing out of it. It wasn't fun to get UP to a certain point in stats, then do something else. And yet, with this attack rate cap, they've literally turned attack rate into one of these stats. With the same stroke, they both removed a problem and then put it right back in the game.

Also, yes I'm aware that excess rate gets converted to damage. However, it's not a 1:1 transfer, so you're actually penalized for putting anything extra into rate.

[IconiX]

Originally posted by B166ER:

A completely new person who never played a single video game in their life might indeed behave like that, but everyone with enough video game experience instinctively knows that something shady is going on if a single stat is artificially locked at a specific number, but every other stat isn't.

Movement speed used to be artificially locked at a specific number, not so shady was it.

All kidding aside anyone with any video game experience knows about hard and soft caps, some games hard cap dodge rate, others crit rate, it's a cheap and easy way to balance the game.

Trust me I miss nothing more than watching the DD1 harpoon beam impale everything that spawns but alas.

Yes I'm aware of the missing "soon-to-come" features, I waited 2 years just to get my name in that legends tablet, and people have the right to be mad of course, but it gets old fast when the same angry people who don't own the game just want to hate because everyone else is hating.

If this change paves the way for more balanced content in the future then I don't mind, only time will tell and in the meantime, there are hundreds more games to play while you wait.

Originally posted by Valthejean:

This patch LITERALLY did a revamp to remove stats from gear that were either worthless, or hard capped. Casting rate, projectile numbers, reload speed. All of these stats were removed and streamlined based on player level, SPECIFICALLY because the developers realized that it's not fun to have a stat you can put points into and get nothing out of it. It wasn't fun to get UP to a certain point in stats, then do something else. And yet, with this attack rate cap, they've literally turned attack rate into one of these stats. With the same stroke, they both removed a problem and then put it right back in the game.

Also, yes I'm aware that excess rate gets converted to damage. However, it's not a 1:1 transfer, so you're actually penalized for putting anything extra into rate.

I agree with everything you said, but honestly it's one less stat I need to worry about when farming gear lel

[B166ER]

Originally posted by IconiX:

Originally posted by B166ER:

A completely new person who never played a single video game in their life might indeed behave like that, but everyone with enough video game experience instinctively knows that something shady is going on if a single stat is artificially locked at a specific number, but every other stat isn't.

Movement speed used to be artificially locked at a specific number, not so shady was it.

All kidding aside anyone with any video game experience knows about hard and soft caps, some games hard cap dodge rate, others crit rate, it's a cheap and easy way to balance the game.

Trust me I miss nothing more than watching the DD1 harpoon beam impale everything that spawns but alas.

Yes I'm aware of the missing "soon-to-come" features, I waited 2 years just to get my name in that legends tablet, and people have the right to be mad of course, but it gets old fast when the same angry people who don't own the game just want to hate because everyone else is hating.

If this change paves the way for more balanced content in the future then I don't mind, only time will tell and in the meantime, there are hundreds more games to play while you wait. :winter2019cooldog:

> All kidding aside anyone with any video game experience knows about hard and soft caps, some games hard cap dodge rate, others crit rate, it's a cheap and easy way to balance the game.

Sure, it's a common thing, but in this case a SINGLE STAT is being artificially capped as otherwise their whole game would crumble apart/would barely run on consoles, which is just utterly laughable.


> ...but it gets old fast when the same angry people who don't own the game just want to hate because everyone else is hating.

Humor me:
- Where's that infantile notion coming from that "any kind of criticism/non-positive comments" equals "hate/hating"?
- How can criticism that isn't addressed at all or addressed in any meaningful way, get "old"?

[TTV ZiProphet]

So the TL:DR is "We the developers can't make the game as good as the original, we sold you on this message... Too bad, that's the biz."