Does the AI cheat ?

[MF]

As I gradually grind Mycenae down to a nub, they've pulled two full 20 stacks of Cerberus' finest death dealers from seemingly out of nowhere. Last bunch of turns their generals have only been able to recruit a handful of good units and mostly units of lesser quality. Surprise surprise I got manhandled by two doomstacks which they seemingly pulled out of a hat.

What kills me is that they appeared not from major settlements but from smaller towns which, as it turned out, had no buildings that enabled recruitment at all.

WTF ??? I can't do this !!!

[Yews]

The AI always cheats; the extent varies. The game where the cheats it’s granted are most negligible is Medieval II which is most likely why it’s also the easiest game in the franchise. That being said, I haven’t encountered cheats as outrageous as you’ve described in this game; your story is near Attila level of bollockery.

[MF]

Originally posted by Yews:

The AI always cheats; the extent varies. The game where the cheats it’s granted are most negligible is Medieval II which is most likely why it’s also the easiest game in the franchise. That being said, I haven’t encountered cheats as outrageous as you’ve described in this game; your story is near Attila level of bollockery.

Well tbh I lost an entire army. Caught me in hard march - my bad. I had a hard enough time with the first one but then their reinforcements came from behind me. Greasy b*st*rds. I have 6 other armies but still............. yikes. I note a few of their generals sailing off to that lone island at the far far lower left of the map. Last stand I guess ?

Ironically, while I've been fighting their g*dda*m unbreakable troops, I've yet to see Cerberus himself. I've whittled Mycenae down from over 90 to less then 10 settlements. I wonder where they're hiding him ?

I've heard stories that the AI cheats its face off in Shogun II as well. Haven't picked that one up yet - waiting for the next sale............. c'mon Steam.

[The Last Unicorn]

AI always cheats in every game, how would it ever beat someone as smart as myself ;p

In here I noticed they field more armies than what they could possibly afford.

[Yews]

Originally posted by The Last Unicorn:

In here I noticed they field more armies than what they could possibly afford.

I have modded the game and turned off the miraculous income they are getting out of thin air; now what the AI can afford is directly tied to how much their actual property that exists physically in the game world generates, but the unfortunate side effect is that horde factions simply evaporate after a couple turns, because their entire economy is built around having that magical income out of nowhere. I guess I am keeping the bollocks income for my next campaign, or better yet I am switching to Pharaoh where this issue has been finally done away with.

Originally posted by MF:

I've heard stories that the AI cheats its face off in Shogun II as well.

Depends on the difficulty level, but in that particular game the AI is capable enough for cheats not to be the primary reason why countless would-be shoguns hit their clenched fists of rage bad on their desks and left negative reviews of the game online. It is often said that Attila is the most difficult game in the franchise but memories of Shogun 2 give me second thoughts.

[MF]

Originally posted by Yews:

Originally posted by The Last Unicorn:

In here I noticed they field more armies than what they could possibly afford.

I have modded the game and turned off the miraculous income they are getting out of thin air; now what the AI can afford is directly tied to how much their actual property that exists physically in the game world generates, but the unfortunate side effect is that horde factions simply evaporate after a couple turns, because their entire economy is built around having that magical income out of nowhere. I guess I am keeping the bollocks income for my next campaign, or better yet I am switching to Pharaoh where this issue has been finally done away with.

Originally posted by MF:

I've heard stories that the AI cheats its face off in Shogun II as well.

Depends on the difficulty level, but in that particular game the AI is capable enough for cheats not to be the primary reason why countless would-be shoguns hit their clenched fists of rage bad on their desks and left negative reviews of the game online. It is often said that Attila is the most difficult game in the franchise but memories of Shogun 2 give me second thoughts.

That's the thing - these peckers shouldn't have the units they have. What mod is that which prevents them from cheating ?

As of this morning I was out in the ocean playing cat & mouse with 3 of them. I had to put one of my Thracian forest hordes out there (expendable) as bait to lure them. It worked but that unit got absolutely wrecked. The AI is very good at positioning and calculating distance to its own advantage. Fair enough............ but when I take all of your food production away don't start sailing the seas with full stacks !!!!!!

Regarding Shogun, I've heard that darthmod prevents the AI from cheating so bad.

[Yews]

The mod that prevents them from cheating also prevents you from cheating as well. I’ve come up with the idea back when I was playing Shogun 2 actually. I noticed that my income surpassed the sum of my actual property that I physically owned in the game world by a large margin. It turned out that the game feeds every faction a fixed sum every turn, out of thin air, and every faction receives that sum every turn even if it owns no territory. I found that bizarre and thought that it was just lazy game design, so I found the lines in the code that governed that magical income, and I got rid of them. The game became much more interesting, I never played vanilla since, in Rome II as well where that fixed sum is also a thing and its elimination improves gameplay a lot as well. I also play Troy like this — I found the hidden fairy tale income for all factions and erased them, so that all the income everyone gets comes straight from their actual assets that they really own on the campaign map rather than from some arcane vault among the stars like in vanilla. I have never published my mods that do this though. Firstly, my idea fell apart when Attila came about, because horde factions in that game and in every game since that game literally can’t survive without the philosopher’s stone, which, sadly, has turned out to be the case with Penthesilea and with Memnon in this game, just like with Goths and Vandals in Attila. Secondly, the devs themselves have finally addressed the issue of the preprogrammed income in Pharaoh, along with a myriad other irks I’ve had with this franchise. So I hope the moment they, at last, slap the Troy map onto Pharaoh, which means in practice that Troy receives all the wonderful improvements introduced in Pharaoh as well as like a 200% increase in volume, I can finally forget about the magic income thing and the necessity to play with the mod is simply no longer there. Of course I could release it just so you could try to play without the bollocks income, but like I said, this change pretty much immediately eliminates the nomad factions, and I intend to either play vanilla or come up with a more sophisticated solution until the Aegean lands in Pharaoh.

[MF]

Originally posted by Yews:

The mod that prevents them from cheating also prevents you from cheating as well. I’ve come up with the idea back when I was playing Shogun 2 actually. I noticed that my income surpassed the sum of my actual property that I physically owned in the game world by a large margin. It turned out that the game feeds every faction a fixed sum every turn, out of thin air, and every faction receives that sum every turn even if it owns no territory. I found that bizarre and thought that it was just lazy game design, so I found the lines in the code that governed that magical income, and I got rid of them. The game became much more interesting, I never played vanilla since, in Rome II as well where that fixed sum is also a thing and its elimination improves gameplay a lot as well. I also play Troy like this — I found the hidden fairy tale income for all factions and erased them, so that all the income everyone gets comes straight from their actual assets that they really own on the campaign map rather than from some arcane vault among the stars like in vanilla. I have never published my mods that do this though. Firstly, my idea fell apart when Attila came about, because horde factions in that game and in every game since that game literally can’t survive without the philosopher’s stone, which, sadly, has turned out to be the case with Penthesilea and with Memnon in this game, just like with Goths and Vandals in Attila. Secondly, the devs themselves have finally addressed the issue of the preprogrammed income in Pharaoh, along with a myriad other irks I’ve had with this franchise. So I hope the moment they, at last, slap the Troy map onto Pharaoh, which means in practice that Troy receives all the wonderful improvements introduced in Pharaoh as well as like a 200% increase in volume, I can finally forget about the magic income thing and the necessity to play with the mod is simply no longer there. Of course I could release it just so you could try to play without the bollocks income, but like I said, this change pretty much immediately eliminates the nomad factions, and I intend to either play vanilla or come up with a more sophisticated solution until the Aegean lands in Pharaoh.

LOL - the two factions I have zero interest in are the nomads in Troy. Everyone else will get a test drive. I can handle my 'nemesis' cheating a bit as god knows I can still whoop their ass if I'm careful. It's extremely late game that they're pulling this crap so that might be part of it. Early and mid-game it wasn't an issue at all.

Interesting about Shogun II though as I'm very much thinking about picking it up and playing it before I delve further into Rome II. Play them all in sequence, eh ? I find Rome to be quite a bit more complex than Troy, although that might be simply because I'm used to the latter.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally posted by Yews:

The AI always cheats; the extent varies.

That's right. It happens even in Rome TW (1). I noticed during a rebellion that the rebels spawned Praetorians, even without the necessary buildings for that.
I own the entire franchise except for the Warhammer series, and I've seen the AI cheating in all the games.

Originally posted by Yews:

The game where the cheats it’s granted are most negligible is Medieval II which is most likely why it’s also the easiest game in the franchise.

Perhaps it makes the game easier, but it is more fun to play according to the same rules. I don't like when the devs compensate their lack of tactical skill or knowledge, or their laziness to programm the AI correctly, by giving insane advantages to the AI.
But the latter is by far the easiest way...

[The Last Unicorn]

But isnt Legendary meant to be an insane hard level that just throws cheats at you ;p I always thought its meant for people for whom a fair challenge isnt enough ;p

[MF]

Originally posted by The Last Unicorn:

But isnt Legendary meant to be an insane hard level that just throws cheats at you ;p I always thought its meant for people for whom a fair challenge isnt enough ;p

I play on normal. I don't really have the time to spend 30+ minutes micromanaging each and every battle (which is why I loathe sieges against walled towns). I do enjoy battles a lot, but I set them up so that I know I have an advantage. If I completely screw the dog I'll go back to an earlier save - can't do that on legendary.

Having said that, every once in a while I'll defend a settlement against heavy odds just to see how I can f*ck with the AI. It takes a lot of time and patience and it's fun when I pull it off, but I don't want to do it every time.

[The Last Unicorn]

I usually play on hard or very hard ;p I like loosing ;p Its what I do best in this game ;p Other than previous era games which were piss easy I only won once as Takeda in Shogun 2, after a ton of reloading older saves as you mention ;p and I think once as Vikings in Attila.

I only tried legendary once, as Otomo Clan in Shogun 2, but I figured out the money exploit too late and got obliterated by AI either way ;p

[MF]

Originally posted by The Last Unicorn:

I usually play on hard or very hard ;p I like loosing ;p Its what I do best in this game ;p Other than previous era games which were piss easy I only won once as Takeda in Shogun 2, after a ton of reloading older saves as you mention ;p and I think once as Vikings in Attila.

I only tried legendary once, as Otomo Clan in Shogun 2, but I figured out the money exploit too late and got obliterated by AI either way ;p

I've been known to play a faction and then on my very next playthru shout at my screen and insult their mother. After my Diomedes run where I cursed Rhesus up and down, I played Rhesus next and talked quite a lot about how Diaomedes's mother serviced Athenian sailors. It all depends on your point of view lol.

What I'm getting at is I hate losing. It's not an option. Came close as Thesus but pulled out the win in the end - after a whole lot of cursing, hetacombs and prayers to Zeus plus lots of bribery. I got Sparta to turn on Mycenae, which is actually remarkable when you think about it because they're brothers.