GTFO: Generally bad Game Design and Why.

[Infinity]

Stealth vs Loud Mission or Why you aren't Payday and can't have both.

Payday 2 had stealth missions. You could also go loud on some. Some you couldn't. It was a game about clowns shooting cops, stealing money and goat simulator cross overs. It was a dark time in gaming's history, but even so, some of the missions where Stealth was optional still worked because the core gunplay was always around shooting hordes of inexautable members of corrupt law enforcement; that is to say, the mechanics you relied on to fix a problem you created were solid and perfectly capable of getting you out of that mess. Not so with GTFO.

The core gameplay of GTFO is hitting things with the worlds loudest silent mallet and playing Red Light, Green Light with seizure monsters. It is therefore no surprise to anyone that the gunplay is probably one of the worst things about the game. But that's okay...at least it would have been, if guns were the fall back option, a punishment option for failing stealth. Unfortunately in the quest to draw inspiration from other games like say, L4D, a forced meme of an Alarm at 3 points throughout a mission is a forced punishment for succeeding in stealth: You must now use the bad weapons and fight enemies in engagements that are not rewarding, tense or fun, merely tedious, aggrevating and generally excactly the same every time.

Having a flood of enemies all come in at once, hitting you with homing attacks at range, hitting you through doors they haven't broken down, exhausting limited supplies and health...all this for having suceeded in stealth is like giving a safe driver a free car accident for his renewal.

Horror games must always flirt the line cautiously between Fear and Frustration. GTFO is really good at crossing the line almost immediately from "Spooky" to frustrating. This is because absolutely everything about it seems to be designed to mess with you.

Despite stealth being the main go to core of the game, and arguably the only way people should be able to play it, the mechanics for stealth are anything but solid. Sleepers will often wake up for no reason at all at any cardinal direction or distance for one sleeper getting "silently" malleted and sound the alarm. Often enough this happens at INCREDIBLE distances in larger multi-connecting hubs. Likewise falling down 1 inch on a stair system not even causing damage to yourself will also sometimes trigger a full panic attack in your room. You may even experience half the room panic and attack you and the other half remain in blissful sleep. The point is, there's not really a rhyme nor a reason as to why you or your team mates will get detected, sometimes everyone will even be completely still and that sleeper just doesn't like the way you are typing on a computer in the knockoff CMD_Run prompt.

And now you enter the gunplay, with guns that feel more like Nerf Darts than bullets, and enemies that unsatisfying hit you with homing heat seeker tongues and Kirby Star bolt missles at range, you'd be hard pressed not to mistake this for some knock off Doom game. The enemies feel cheap as they hit you with projectiles or their tongues at absurd distances, take a cruel amount of ammo to put down and deal more than their fair share of damage. The guns will give you no satisfaction as you realize the Max Ammo Capacity of a machine gun is 100 rounds including the loaded mag, while the SMG which deals comparable Damage has 40 in it's mag and a 100 reserve to start.

You will be compelled to turn your brain off as the Warden of a prison will not give you 600 rounds of shotgun shells and a bandolier, maybe totalling 250 USD on the excuse of "expense" but then hand over a multi-million dollar bio-Scanner and Sentry Gun for you to take down with you.You didn't notice it but your brain did.

You'll find yourself hating the weapons you depend on since you can't just throw them in the garbage and enjoy a high stakes stealth mission because for some reason, someone, somewhere decided they wanted to force you to fight a horde at 3 scripted points to whiddle down your will power to continue playing this game.

You might have a big brain moment and decide that the mines should be whombo-combo'd at these events with C-Foamed doors only to discover the doors are like GTFO, in theory they exist and therefore take up space, in practice they are merely a suggestion, as a crowd that only Jesus Christ himself could pull simultaneously one shots you from behind a door, then proceeds to flood over your now man down team and hurl christmas lights through their skulls at 300 yards.

GTFO feels like a game I honestly have trouble even getting mad at, it can barely inspire negative feedback in me because of how bland and repetitive the gameplay becomes: Slapping things with a hammer while walking down a hall over and over again until I'm forced to use unbalanced, un-fun guns with very limited ammo to defend myself from scripted alarms I have no way of avoiding and then doing it again on same 4 enemy models throwing Kirby Starbolts at me for another two more times and then leave.

The game would be infinitely more exciting if Stealth was the intended and rewarded method of infiltration and extraction with Combat being the un-fun punsihment factor for not disarming an alarm before you entered a room or not killing Scout before they feel you up. If the integrity of the gunplay is someones child and cannot be put down like the dog it is, many options remain that while considerably less optimal would be easy: Increased ammo spawns to deal with the ♥♥♥♥ ton of horde you insist upon us fighting; improving balance in weapons like damage or max capacity (Machine Gun, Revolver, Pistol etc).

Unfortunately Fallout 76 has taught me there are people who will pay and defend anything, and therefore these suggestions or points, will likely fall on deaf ears...

...But my wallet will remain curiously not-empty.

[ProdigyXP]

引用自 Coco：

just stop comparing to Left 4 Dead. its nothing of the sort, besides 4 pLaYeR cO-Op.

The only people in this thread making any comparison to L4D are you and the OP, whom you seem to agree with for the most part.

There is constructive criticism and destructive criticism. Guess which one your post falls under?

[Richard Roe]

So the tldr is
stealth is clunky as the spotter hostiles seem to be 50/50 work as intended or instant spot

guns don't hold nearly enough ammo for how little damage they deal

even if you flawlessly exicute stealth there are parts where the game forces your to fight
enemies have imaculate accuracy and can hit though doors that are closed


I personaly just recived the game as a gift from a friend who got bonus keys with their copy

[Shrinkshooter]

引用自 --STYX--：

OP is giving his honest opinion, and just because it may not be your opinion you try to patronize him?

I won't begrudge anyone being a condescending jerk to the OP. Have you read OP's post? It's nonstop condescension and derision. Some of his points are fine, some of his points are not, but he didn't need to have such a vitriolic bitter undertone to everything. Though I did chuckle at the "I'm not mad tho" comment. He's mixing halfway reliable criticism with antagonism, practically begging for someone to start an argument with him because he's irritated.

引用自 Geld：

You have a choice to painstaking clear the zones with a mallet so that when you trigger alarms you don't get shafted;

No. It doesn't work like that, and OP's complaint about the alarm systems is completely valid. You might not agree with it, but it's still a valid argument. Clearing rooms has no effect on the number of enemies you get attacked by; we know this for certain because enemies almost always spawn from the very first room you're dropped into. You could clear all of zones 10 and 11, it wouldn't change anything. Enemies will spawn and keep coming for as long as the alarm is blaring, clearing all the rooms won't change that. Same with the scouts; if they glow blue and explode, it spawns new enemies, it doesn't simply call a bunch from all the neighboring rooms (unless the doors are open).

[FifthHorsemaN]

I can appreciate the OP's colorful language rather than just a post about ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Most of his points are valid, but maybe it's the hyperbolic descriptions of minor issues that are putting people off. Obvious there are the glitches:

- enemies attacking/shooting through doors
- tripping and climbing geometry well above your feet
- triggering enemies red as a result of this
- enemy trigger distance and triggering from inexplicable reasons
- delayed weapon switch time after placing a mine

And these things are going to be fixed (hopefully) and are destined to be non-issues. Then there are game DESIGN concerns. Going into a situation like the one in the game, you're expected to use some common sense and planning to get you through. Well, common sense tells me that:

- simply standing up in place won't alert an enemy more than moving whilst crouching
- slamming a heavy two handed object into the ground will alert an enemy
- killing an enemy 6 feet from another as it shrieks upon death will wake the other
- nothing organic can become magically invincible and take multiple sniper shots to the head (scout)
- I should be able to close a security door (very stupid design and no one would make such a thing. Especially how the handles clip back through the frame into the wall...)
- unlocking a security door shouldn't require me standing in random spots
- flashlights in fog are a bit too exaggerated
- defogger radius wouldn't form a hard defined edge where it just stops working
- if enemies can survive beheadings, they shouldn't die just from losing limbs
- terminal interaction shouldn't be limited in a way no one would allow IRL (not sure if glitched or not implemented though)


The glitches will be fixed, but there are some clear design decisions above that are intentional that remove the player from the intended "what would I do if I were in this situation?" mindset and you're forced the play within the arbitrary rules the devs laid out.

Of course there are others like "why can't I carry more ammo" or "why am I limited to carrying X number of packs" (at least sprint isn't limited amirite?)...some of those we let slide usually as we've come to do in most games. Personally I'd rather go in with a ton of ammo and either have no or rare ammo pickups. When you use it all, it's gone. Is it unrealistic to come across a security door with an alarm on it? No. Why is it only one some? Idk. It should probably be random. But there are better ways of dealing with it than bum-rushing a whole bunch of new spawns at the player. Because if all zones were knowingly cleared, that shouldn't happen. I suppose you can lazily reason it away saying some "confinement zones" have opened up but we never see anything like that even if we backtrack after the fact.

In any case, I get where OP is coming from. I would just suggest concentrating on the actual design flaws than wasting time complaining about bugs.

[Kay]

引用自 Richard Roe：

So the tldr is
stealth is clunky as the spotter hostiles seem to be 50/50 work as intended or instant spot

guns don't hold nearly enough ammo for how little damage they deal

even if you flawlessly exicute stealth there are parts where the game forces your to fight
enemies have imaculate accuracy and can hit though doors that are closed


I personaly just recived the game as a gift from a friend who got bonus keys with their copy

Stealth being clunky I fully agree with, it's good in concept but a bit inconsistent

guns having little ammo I'm ok with, I'd like if they were a little more punchy with chest shots personally

game forcing you to fight is ok with me, it means that being stealth has a reward but you still need to be good at shooting, and it drains resources so that you never feel like you have enough (which I think is intended)

The accuracy of enemies used to be a bit worse (sidestepping their attacks used to work) and I preferred that to what it is now

[[ARA] Panzergott]

I can overlook certain bugs obviously because of the alpha state. Sure being hit through doors is frustrating but im sure itll be fixed eventually.

I however cannot just accept 1 core design decision that completely ruins everything else the game has. By forcing these numerous Crescendo events (as they call them for L4D) the dev have brought to light all of the other major flaws about the game.

The guns being complete ass and having limited ammo would make sense if you could stealth everything or close to it. Have them being just a fallback in which your team makes mistakes and can awkwardly kill rooms from a distance. I wouldnt complain as much about guns if it wasnt for Sec Doors.

The enemies all having way to much health and being incredibly cheap with the way they damage you. That too would be forgivable if the intention was to stealth kill as much as possible to limit how many resources you use. I get wanting to make these creature tough and deadly which they currently are but thats not okay when you're forced to fight them in massive groups without being able to change that outcome whatsoever from the player perspective.

Any sense of atmosphere or horror the game may build up too by getting sucked in is completely thrown out the window when you know for a fact you'll be fighting a massive horde later in the exact same spot everytime. Theres no tension on "Well if we play our cards right we can avoid the alarm" then someone ♥♥♥♥♥ up and you have to defend yourself.

Its taking control away from the player by not even giving an option to avoid the door alarms, shines a light on how poor all the other systems of the game is, and breaks the atmosphere by removing tension.

[Kay]

引用自 Panzergott：

~snip~

something like taking a longer route around the (alarmed) security doors to avoid the horde, but having to pass through more rooms stealthily to do it?

Honestly, as least to me, the guns being bad at dealing with the monsters is a good decision, as long as (as you said) there is a way of getting through the whole area stealthily

[[ARA] Panzergott]

引用自 Ki'agh：

引用自 Panzergott：

~snip~

something like taking a longer route around the (alarmed) security doors to avoid the horde, but having to pass through more rooms stealthily to do it?

Honestly, as least to me, the guns being bad at dealing with the monsters is a good decision, as long as (as you said) there is a way of getting through the whole area stealthily

Funny you should mention that because thats exactly what I attempted to do on the second Sec Door but couldnt.

It be nice if you need to get to Sector 15 in the north you could go through sector 14 to the west and swoop around into 15 without touching the Alarm Door. By doing that when the mission ends with the alarm blaring and you have to run back through the mission after obtaining the objective youd have a longer route to run around because you didnt open the Sec Door earlier.

It could be a type of choice making that has its pros and cons on both sides. Take the hard fight while pushing through for an easier retreat later or take the longer stealthy route with a bigger room for mistakes that also adds on a harder retreat to the escape.

[St0rmFury]

引用自 Shrinkshooter：

No. It doesn't work like that, and OP's complaint about the alarm systems is completely valid. You might not agree with it, but it's still a valid argument. Clearing rooms has no effect on the number of enemies you get attacked by; we know this for certain because enemies almost always spawn from the very first room you're dropped into. You could clear all of zones 10 and 11, it wouldn't change anything. Enemies will spawn and keep coming for as long as the alarm is blaring, clearing all the rooms won't change that. Same with the scouts; if they glow blue and explode, it spawns new enemies, it doesn't simply call a bunch from all the neighboring rooms (unless the doors are open).

It doesn't?! Man then we've been clearing rooms to prepare for the alarm door and wasting our time!

[G n e l d]

引用自 St0rmFury：

引用自 Shrinkshooter：

No. It doesn't work like that, and OP's complaint about the alarm systems is completely valid. You might not agree with it, but it's still a valid argument. Clearing rooms has no effect on the number of enemies you get attacked by; we know this for certain because enemies almost always spawn from the very first room you're dropped into. You could clear all of zones 10 and 11, it wouldn't change anything. Enemies will spawn and keep coming for as long as the alarm is blaring, clearing all the rooms won't change that. Same with the scouts; if they glow blue and explode, it spawns new enemies, it doesn't simply call a bunch from all the neighboring rooms (unless the doors are open).

It doesn't?! Man then we've been clearing rooms to prepare for the alarm door and wasting our time! :lunar2019shockedpig:

He's not completely right or wrong. There is a wave that spawns from the start location; but the gunfire and alarm also pulls nearby mobs to the room.

[Shrinkshooter]

引用自 St0rmFury：

It doesn't?! Man then we've been clearing rooms to prepare for the alarm door and wasting our time! :lunar2019shockedpig:

It isn't like clearing rooms is a total waste, it makes returning to previous rooms a lot faster and it gives you a place to fall back to if crap hits the fan. When the alarm goes off or a scout explodes, it spawns new enemies in adjacent rooms; you can see this yourself because 1) you'll find enemies coming from previously cleared rooms and they never come from them otherwise, and 2) after the alarm goes off, you can sometimes go into the adjacent rooms whose doors didn't break, and the enemies you left there are still there sleeping.

Enemies in adjacent rooms will join the fight if the door is broken and they hear gunfire, so it isn't like clearing rooms is bad practice or anything. It just doesn't reduce spawn numbers for the alarms. So I'm just telling you that trying to totally clear zones 10 through 12 of all enemies isn't going to do a thing for you when it comes to alarms. What we HAVE noticed, though, is that if you can keep the doors foamed for a long time and turn off the alarm as fast as you can, the mobs that eventually make it into the room are few in number. Like a dozen or fewer. Not sure why, but it's a pattern we noticed tonight. Refoaming the same doors they were banging on during the alarm = 7 enemies to kill when they eventually broke through.

[Kilo]

引用自 ARA Infinity：

Stealth vs Loud Mission or Why you aren't Payday and can't have both.

You will be compelled to turn your brain off as the Warden of a prison will not give you 600 rounds of shotgun shells and a bandolier, maybe totalling 250 USD on the excuse of "expense" but then hand over a multi-million dollar bio-Scanner and Sentry Gun for you to take down with you.You didn't notice it but your brain did.

Can you link me to the games detailed lore and how you know that ammo is abundant in this world/time and these scanner are a rare commodity.

Thanks in advance

[Infinity]

引用自 Kilo (He/Him)：

引用自 ARA Infinity：

Stealth vs Loud Mission or Why you aren't Payday and can't have both.

You will be compelled to turn your brain off as the Warden of a prison will not give you 600 rounds of shotgun shells and a bandolier, maybe totalling 250 USD on the excuse of "expense" but then hand over a multi-million dollar bio-Scanner and Sentry Gun for you to take down with you.You didn't notice it but your brain did.

Can you link me to the games detailed lore and how you know that ammo is abundant in this world/time and these scanner are a rare commodity.

Thanks in advance

Bullets are lost tech in your headcannon apparently.

[Kilo]

引用自 ARA Infinity：

引用自 Kilo (He/Him)：

Can you link me to the games detailed lore and how you know that ammo is abundant in this world/time and these scanner are a rare commodity.

Thanks in advance

Bullets are lost tech in your headcannon apparently.

Yeah didn't think so... unsubbed, bye!

[Infinity]

引用自 Kilo (He/Him)：

引用自 ARA Infinity：

Bullets are lost tech in your headcannon apparently.

Yeah didn't think so... unsubbed, bye!

You got me dead to rights kiddo.