Non-Immersive Sim -> The Best Immersive Sim!

[Laicus]

In the original, there is no first-person view and accurate vertical aiming, so despite the amazing gameplay, for me it is not an immersive sim and I could not play with such a view and control, but the first-person mod completely changed the situation, it added missing elements, and for me the game turned into one of the best immersive sims of all times!
Thanks to everyone who made this miracle happen!

[Laicus]

Nguyên văn bởi Legather:

And again, if you don't get a feeling of immersion because of a perspective then I'm sorry but that hindrance is not shared by everyone thus is not an inherent characteristic to that perspective.

But the 1-person view is a mandatory gameplay part of any full-fledged immersive sim. The camera view is not some kind of visual component that affects (or does not affect) only immersion, it is a very important gameplay element, without a 1-person view there can be no full-fledged simulation of your being in the game world, it is responsible not only for immersion, but also for many features in the game.
I repeat, if we consider WW to be an immersive sim, then this is a degradation of this genre, since only a 1-person view can simulate the character's vision. There is no point in creating such an inferior immersive sim, even if 20 years ago technology allowed to create more advanced immersive sims. If it's just a tactical action rpg, then I have no questions, but if the game is presented as an immersive sim, then this is a shameful representative of the genre, lagging behind its development by more than a couple of decades.

[jerrypocalypse]

Nguyên văn bởi Laicus:

Nguyên văn bởi Legather:

And again, if you don't get a feeling of immersion because of a perspective then I'm sorry but that hindrance is not shared by everyone thus is not an inherent characteristic to that perspective.

But the 1-person view is a mandatory gameplay part of any full-fledged immersive sim. The camera view is not some kind of visual component that affects (or does not affect) only immersion, it is a very important gameplay element, without a 1-person view there can be no full-fledged simulation of your being in the game world, it is responsible not only for immersion, but also for many features in the game.
I repeat, if we consider WW to be an immersive sim, then this is a degradation of this genre, since only a 1-person view can simulate the character's vision. There is no point in creating such an inferior immersive sim, even if 20 years ago technology allowed to create more advanced immersive sims. If it's just a tactical action rpg, then I have no questions, but if the game is presented as an immersive sim, then this is a shameful representative of the genre, lagging behind its development by more than a couple of decades.

That's all opinion, and that's fine.

[♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠]

"I-Sim has to be FPS"

No

Please learn the definition of Immersive Sim. Next guy gonna say the code to the first lock has to be 0451 to be I-Sim

[Laicus]

Nguyên văn bởi ♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠:

Please learn the definition of Immersive Sim

OK, if we consider the game an immersive sim, due to the fact that it has various gameplay mechanics, the ability to create unforeseen situations and perform tasks in different ways, then yes, it is an immersive sim, but with an isometric view without the ability to switch to a 1-person view, and without accurate aiming, it is flawed, degraded immersive sim.

[♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠]

So now it's an I-Sim but "flawed, degraded" Please stop making up your own definition.

Aiming is fine even if you have boomer hands. You just gotta not "lmao Imma hold space to skip" and then learn nothing and blame the game.

I've seen very good critique of the game on this forum, having played and finished this myself after all. Yours ain't it. Go back to System Shock, they need your pointless arguments there or they might off themselves having no reasons to go on.

[Laicus]

Nguyên văn bởi ♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠:

So now it's an I-Sim but "flawed, degraded" :lunar2019crylaughingpig: Please stop making up your own definition.

For me, it's not even close to an immersive sim, it's just an action rpg. And I explained my point of view in detail. The founders of the genre call immersive sims games that give the impression that you yourself are in the world of the game. WW does not create such an illusion, so it is not an immersive sim, although I agree that all this is subjective.

[EfinRocks]

Metal gear solid 3 and Hitman are both widely considered immersive sims, and as for the creators many things are taken and shaped without the creators input, dnd would be much worse and less inclusive if its creator had his way

1st person helps the immersion of an immersive sim but is not the end all be all, the core element is still the same and to restrict the genre by camera angle is overall damaging to the genre

[Doomdood]

Nguyên văn bởi EfinRocks:

Metal gear solid 3 and Hitman are both widely considered immersive sims, and as for the creators many things are taken and shaped without the creators input, dnd would be much worse and less inclusive if its creator had his way

1st person helps the immersion of an immersive sim but is not the end all be all, the core element is still the same and to restrict the genre by camera angle is overall damaging to the genre

The title immersive sim means nothing tbh. People call Bioshock an immersive sim for Christ sakes and it’s just a generic fps with like two useful abilities.

Immersive sims as a genre died after the first deus ex

[♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠]

No, Immersive Sim means something. It's that organic feeling of awe you get from a genuinely special, and often personal moment playing a very specific type of singleplayer game.

Bioshock was an attempt to simplify and mainstream that type of system-based gameplay and clearly failed/succeeded. It failed cus it was too streamlined, eliminated too many systems. It succeeded in selling millions.

A genre can not die. It waxes and wanes. Sometimes an I-Sim comes out and it's just okay, later something else comes out and it's great. As long as there's people that love 'em, there's people that's gonna make 'em.

[Doomdood]

Nguyên văn bởi ♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠:

No, Immersive Sim means something. It's that organic feeling of awe you get from a genuinely special, and often personal moment playing a very specific type of singleplayer game.

Bioshock was an attempt to simplify and mainstream that type of system-based gameplay and clearly failed/succeeded. It failed cus it was too streamlined, eliminated too many systems. It succeeded in selling millions.

A genre can not die. It waxes and wanes. Sometimes an I-Sim comes out and it's just okay, later something else comes out and it's great. As long as there's people that love 'em, there's people that's gonna make 'em.

I have to disagree. Immersive sims are definitely dead. AAA I-Sims anyway.

Too expensive too make and the audience for them is tiny. No big publisher wants to make a real I-Sim any more. Bethesda had Arkane doing it for a bit but even they've switched gears making boring, roguelike fps games AKA Deathloop.

[♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠]

Nguyên văn bởi Doomdood:

Nguyên văn bởi ♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠:

No, Immersive Sim means something. It's that organic feeling of awe you get from a genuinely special, and often personal moment playing a very specific type of singleplayer game.

Bioshock was an attempt to simplify and mainstream that type of system-based gameplay and clearly failed/succeeded. It failed cus it was too streamlined, eliminated too many systems. It succeeded in selling millions.

A genre can not die. It waxes and wanes. Sometimes an I-Sim comes out and it's just okay, later something else comes out and it's great. As long as there's people that love 'em, there's people that's gonna make 'em.

I have to disagree. Immersive sims are definitely dead. AAA I-Sims anyway.

Too expensive too make and the audience for them is tiny. No big publisher wants to make a real I-Sim any more. Bethesda had Arkane doing it for a bit but even they've switched gears making boring, roguelike fps games AKA Deathloop.

Well, doomers gonna doom. It's in your name.

DX was released in 2000, and by today's standard it's nowhere near AAA. That level of fidelity is now possible from indies.

Also Arkane's no longer Arkane obviously. People who still wanna make I-Sims like Colantonio left to start new shops, which is just perfect and people who want I-Sims gotta support that effort rather than be all negative nancy and complain why it's not AAA quality. It's gotta start small.

The only thing I agree should've been in the game is much more extensive interactive dialogue. Having a few writers with RPG experience is relatively cheap, there's no VO needed, etc. WW's writing, neither the quantity nor the quality stack up to the expectation of the genre.

[fourfourtwo79]

Nguyên văn bởi ♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠:

The only thing I agree should've been in the game is much more extensive interactive dialogue. Having a few writers with RPG experience is relatively cheap, there's no VO needed, etc. WW's writing, neither the quantity nor the quality stack up to the expectation of the genre.

The request to add fully VO ranks surprisingly high in their own feature upvote, though as it's only a small minority even participating (the highest upvoted feature request has ~250 votes), it shouldn't be overestimated as to how representative that is of their audience. Still, as even developers of more traditional and also traditionally rather text-based CRPGs found, the expectation to go full VO oft seems very real.

I hope they're not gonna go that way, as it's pretty expensive, plus I'd like the budget be spend on other stuff.

As for Arkane, I'm unsure where they're headed myself. They still have people like Smith and Bare in lead design positions either way though. It's apparent that they try to experiment though, given their recent string of commercial underperformances (outside of the first Dishonored, they never had a real hit in general).

PS: Bioshock, whilst not a bad game, was one of the bigger disappointments of my gaming career, in particular in terms of mechanics. However, also in retrospect, purely commercially Irrational did everything right. Arkane's Prey, which was a much closer experience to Shock/2 didn't move the big numbers. Bioshock did.

If the new owners of the respective IPs ever try to make another Thief game, I hope they're considering that there may be room in between the small/er indies and blockbuster productions. Aside of the indies, that's where I see the most immediate future headed. Real-time tactics were also considered pretty much a dead genre, until studios such as Mimimi arrived -- making fantastic games to boot. Every neglected genre eventually creates an opportunity for someone, see the Kickstarter renaissance of CRPGs also.

[rasabt]

Nguyên văn bởi Laicus:

Nguyên văn bởi ♦♣OneFirmCat♥♠:

Please learn the definition of Immersive Sim

OK, if we consider the game an immersive sim, due to the fact that it has various gameplay mechanics, the ability to create unforeseen situations and perform tasks in different ways, then yes, it is an immersive sim, but with an isometric view without the ability to switch to a 1-person view, and without accurate aiming, it is flawed, degraded immersive sim.

me thinks you might want to first checkup on the history of gaming
and the first steps for whatever you call "immersive sim"
just for some notes you could start with the Ultima franchise, which is one of the series that layed the foundations for any and all "immersive" gameplay elements

i cannot even tell you...bonkers it sounds to get hung up on the perspective.

[Laicus]

Nguyên văn bởi rasabt:

me thinks you might want to first checkup on the history of gaming
and the first steps for whatever you call "immersive sim"
just for some notes you could start with the Ultima franchise, which is one of the series that layed the foundations for any and all "immersive" gameplay elements

i cannot even tell you...bonkers it sounds to get hung up on the perspective.

You haven't even read what I've written before. And you don't understand or pretend that you don't understand what the founders of this genre call an immersive sim. They do not reduce everything only to a variety of gameplay mechanics, they call immersive sims, games that have powerful immersion and create the illusion for the player that he is in the game world. I played Weird West, and this game is not immersive at all, there is not even the slightest illusion, so for me it is a non-immersive sim.
You should have a better understanding of the subject matter before you make a statement. And the camera perspective is a very important gameplay element, and although games without a 1-person view can be very immersive, but still they cannot equal the most immersive games with a 1-person view, this is impossible.

[jerrypocalypse]

Nguyên văn bởi Laicus:

but still they cannot equal the most immersive games with a 1-person view, this is impossible.

Subjective.