Non-Immersive Sim -> The Best Immersive Sim!

[Laicus]

In the original, there is no first-person view and accurate vertical aiming, so despite the amazing gameplay, for me it is not an immersive sim and I could not play with such a view and control, but the first-person mod completely changed the situation, it added missing elements, and for me the game turned into one of the best immersive sims of all times!
Thanks to everyone who made this miracle happen!

[Kai]

I dont understand why people are arguing, Raphael didnt even call this an immersive sim but a game having immersive sim elements.

Of course this isnt an immersive sim, first person camera is essential. This is classified more like an action rpg.

[I'm cucked]

It's definitely an immersive sim.

[Laicus]

Originalmente postado por Grandmaster of Pwn:

i think the OP strictly speaking is wrong. The gameplay imho makes an immersive sim, not the camera perspective. however its such a fluid genre, some might want to argue 1st Person is required.

Spector first used the expression "immersive sim" in relation to Deus Ex, and explained in detail what an immersive sim is. In his original interpretation, immersive sim is a game that gives the feeling that you are not just playing, but are in an alternative world, that the goal of immersive sims is to erase the boundary between the player and this alternative world. This includes both maximum freedom of action and maximum implantation of you into the role of the main character. And in all the interviews and articles that I watched and read, Spector calls immersive sims only games with a 1-person view, and games with great freedom of action, but without a 1-person view, he calls games with an immersive sim mentality. I adhere to this classical interpretation of this genre. Looking Glass Studios created the first immersive sim, and in all their immersive sims, only a 1-person view is used, because it simulates the view from the eyes of the character, this is an integral part of immersive sims, without this simulation, the illusion of being in an alternate world disappears, and the game becomes just puppeteering. Therefore, immersive sims, it's not just gameplay, it's an attempt to convince your mind that you are in the world of the game. It is possible to do this without a 1-person view, but there must be a plausible explanation for such a view, there is no such explanation in WW, so this is not an immersive sim.

[Neynh]

So, I asked a dev on Discord what genre is Weird West : "451"

[Legather]

Having been in a few discussions about what makes a game an ImSim (usually in regards to games like mechanic simulators that have been erroneously tagged as Immersive Simulation) I get being protective about the genre. I definitely find it easier to get into the mindset from first person perspective.

When you read a bit more about the genre however, including what Spector himself has said, it is not reliant upon the perspective but rather concerns the ability for the various systems programmed into the game to interact to provide the player a greater latitude in solving problems.
Dude does talk about seeking not to remind players they're playing a game but in relation to 'gamey' systems and design. From a Glixel interview in 2017:
"It's not scripted – we're using rules and physics and AI to remove the barriers to belief, so that players are not constantly being reminded that they're playing a game." ... "What that does is it allows players to solve problems the way they want to, as opposed to just trying to read the mind of the designer, and figure out the one thing that he or she wants you to do,"

He also talks about a couple of situations in Ultima VI, an isometric game which the article says Spector regards to be the first Immersive Sim:
"There was a moment when we were working on Ultima VI that I'll never forget," says Spector. "I was watching testers play this area where your path is blocked by a portcullis, and you had to flip a lever to raise the portcullis and advance. The tester didn't have the telekinesis spell that you needed in order to flip the lever, and I thought he was doomed. But one of the members of his party was a talking mouse, and since the portcullis was a simulation, the mouse could actually wriggle through it and flip the lever. And I just fell on the floor. No one else in the world had ever done that! You weren't supposed to be able to do that! And I thought to myself, ‘That, that is what I'm doing for a living from now on. I'm going to make things like that happen.' That's the immersive sim right there – all because of an accident."

[Mr. Falcon]

Originalmente postado por Kai:

I dont understand why people are arguing, Raphael didnt even call this an immersive sim but a game having immersive sim elements.

Of course this isnt an immersive sim, first person camera is essential. This is classified more like an action rpg.

hey are you sure? from the games store page here on steam:

Immersive Sim: Weird West supports different styles of play in a simulated sandbox world where characters, factions, and even places react to a player's decisions.

we got him ladies and gentlemen, we got him :)

[Kai]

Originalmente postado por Mr. Falcon:

Originalmente postado por Kai:

I dont understand why people are arguing, Raphael didnt even call this an immersive sim but a game having immersive sim elements.

Of course this isnt an immersive sim, first person camera is essential. This is classified more like an action rpg.

hey are you sure? from the games store page here on steam:

Immersive Sim: Weird West supports different styles of play in a simulated sandbox world where characters, factions, and even places react to a player's decisions.

we got him ladies and gentlemen, we got him :)

Even Dishonored isnt called an immersive sim in the store pages or wiki entries, so Dishonored is not an immersive sim?

[jerrypocalypse]

Originalmente postado por Kai:

Originalmente postado por Mr. Falcon:

hey are you sure? from the games store page here on steam:

Immersive Sim: Weird West supports different styles of play in a simulated sandbox world where characters, factions, and even places react to a player's decisions.

we got him ladies and gentlemen, we got him :)

Even Dishonored isnt called an immersive sim in the store pages or wiki entries, so Dishonored is not an immersive sim?

"Dishonored is an immersive first-person action game [...]" Says immersive right in the first sentence. Sure, it doesn't say "sim" but the intent is there, and arguing against that would just be pedantic.

That said, what does that have to do with the above post? They didn't mention Dishonored's description at all. You just seem to be grasping at straws here.

[Kai]

Originalmente postado por jerrypocalypse:

Originalmente postado por Kai:

Even Dishonored isnt called an immersive sim in the store pages or wiki entries, so Dishonored is not an immersive sim?

"Dishonored is an immersive first-person action game [...]" Says immersive right in the first sentence. Sure, it doesn't say "sim" but the intent is there, and arguing against that would just be pedantic.

That said, what does that have to do with the above post? They didn't mention Dishonored's description at all. You just seem to be grasping at straws here.

Haha, I shouldve double checked the page first. But I remember clearly people making making a fuss when Dishonored was first announced, the mainstream was calling it stealth action, action adventure and what not and not an immersive sim, not even the wiki entry. They probably fixed that too.

He mentioned steam description and my point was they arent always accurate. The description mentions immersive sim as a feature, it doesnt say its an immersive sim.

Regardless, Immersive sim is a collective genre, meaning it needs to have certain mechanics in place to be called an immersive sim. Deus Ex is the perfect example for the amount of weightage each sub genre should have. Raphael is calling this a game with immersive sim elements, thats what it is. First person is an important part of the "Immersion" in the "Immersive sim", both literally and conceptually.

[Budoshi]

An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that (emphasizes) player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer

Immersive sims by definition allow for multiple approaches, and typically incorporate elements of multiple genres, including role-playing games, stealth, first-person shooters, platform games and survival horror.

that's it nothing it says it needs to be first person. good luck with your first person view platform games .

It should be noted that
not all of these characteristics are necessarily required for games to fall into this category

Immersion in an elaborate and believable game world.
Simulation: physics and AI are used to create believable behavior in objects and characters which the player can freely interact with, resulting in 'emergent gameplay'.

First-person perspective so as to truly look through the eyes of the protagonist.
Game design that allows for multiple paths and/or multiple solutions in every situation.
A systemic game world that keeps track of the player's actions, which can affect the "whole" game.
Open-ended/non-linear game design with an emphasis on choice and consequence.
Full control over the player's character in every situation.
A world with consistent rules that the player can interact with.
Narrative that is not always forced on the player, but instead can be told through exploration and gameplay at that players will.
No fail states, beyond player death.

source https://www.giantbomb.com/immersive-sim/3015-5700/ .

[easytarget]

Seems like a lot of digital ink wasted over no true Scotsman.

[Laicus]

Originalmente postado por Neynh:

So, I asked a dev on Discord what genre is Weird West : "451"

This is not the opinion of the creator of this genre. To get an unambiguous answer whether such a game is an immersive sim, you need to ask those who introduced this definition, and these are Warren Spector and Doug Church. I can only quote Spector's words about what feelings an immersive sim should evoke:

"you are there, nothing stands between you and belief that you're in an alternate world"

According to this, if isometry does not prevent a person from feeling himself in the world of the game, then for him it is an immersive sim, and if it interferes, then it is just a game with a variety of gameplay mechanics.

[Kai]

Originalmente postado por Laicus:

Originalmente postado por Neynh:

So, I asked a dev on Discord what genre is Weird West : "451"

This is not the opinion of the creator of this genre. To get an unambiguous answer whether such a game is an immersive sim, you need to ask those who introduced this definition, and these are Warren Spector and Doug Church. I can only quote Spector's words about what feelings an immersive sim should evoke:

"you are there, nothing stands between you and belief that you're in an alternate world"

According to this, if isometry does not prevent a person from feeling himself in the world of the game, then for him it is an immersive sim, and if it interferes, then it is just a game with a variety of gameplay mechanics.

I believe these are the same people that call a game rpg if it has rpg elements. If a rts has an approach/choice/outcome design paradigm in its missions, that will be immersive sim as well. A lot of traditional rpgs, crpgs and jrpgs, have the same formula when it comes to how the world reflects back to your choics, I guess they are immersive sims too.

[jerrypocalypse]

Originalmente postado por Kai:

Originalmente postado por jerrypocalypse:

"Dishonored is an immersive first-person action game [...]" Says immersive right in the first sentence. Sure, it doesn't say "sim" but the intent is there, and arguing against that would just be pedantic.

That said, what does that have to do with the above post? They didn't mention Dishonored's description at all. You just seem to be grasping at straws here.

Haha, I shouldve double checked the page first.

Yeah, it is usually a smart idea to check facts before attempting to make a factual statement 😉

Originalmente postado por Kai:

First person is an important part of the "Immersion" in the "Immersive sim", both literally and conceptually.

For some people it is, yes. But not all people. I, for example, have zero issues getting immersed in a game that's not first person. The perspective has nothing to do with my immersion in a game. Others are the same way, because people are different. That's why first person is not a *requirement* for a game to be immersive or an "immersive sim" like the OP claims.

[Kai]

Originalmente postado por jerrypocalypse:

Originalmente postado por Kai:

Haha, I shouldve double checked the page first.

Yeah, it is usually a smart idea to check facts before attempting to make a factual statement 😉

Originalmente postado por Kai:

First person is an important part of the "Immersion" in the "Immersive sim", both literally and conceptually.

For some people it is, yes. But not all people. I, for example, have zero issues getting immersed in a game that's not first person. The perspective has nothing to do with my immersion in a game. Others are the same way, because people are different. That's why first person is not a *requirement* for a game to be immersive or an "immersive sim" like the OP claims.

Lol what do you mean by "facts", if they hadnt mentioned Dishonored being an immersive sim in the steam page then it wouldn't have been? Check Dishonored wiki page it doesn't even mention the term immersive sim. Even Deus ex steam page doesnt call it an immersive sim. The only immersive factor they say is the *surprise surprise, the first person view.

Stop believing what you see and see what you believe.