Non-Immersive Sim -> The Best Immersive Sim!

[Laicus]

In the original, there is no first-person view and accurate vertical aiming, so despite the amazing gameplay, for me it is not an immersive sim and I could not play with such a view and control, but the first-person mod completely changed the situation, it added missing elements, and for me the game turned into one of the best immersive sims of all times!
Thanks to everyone who made this miracle happen!

[jerrypocalypse]

Originally posted by Laicus:

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

That completely flew over your head.

You are looking in the right direction, but you don't see the lower limit of the immersive sims, but you have understood something and this is already good, there is even more confusion in the minds of some people.

I'm talking to a bot, apparently.

[Laicus]

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

I'm talking to a bot, apparently.

Our dialogue is not so sophisticated as to deceive consciousness, but if it did, it could become part of an immersive simulation. And here we come again to the basic essence of an immersive sim - you get so involved in the game that you forget that this is a game, and your mind begins to believe in the reality of the game world, and in order for this to happen, the game must have a 1-person view, otherwise the mind will be aware of the catch. So, a 1-person view is an absolutely necessary minimum for immersion simulation, an exception can only be the case if a 3-person view is very plausibly justified, but such a view is too unusual for our vision, therefore, most likely, even with the most plausible justification, no immersive simulation will work, the mind will be clearly to realize that this is just a game.

[Rammur]

try too hard troll

[corbo]

VR is for amateurs.
Real immersive sims transfer physical pain from avatars to players.

[Laicus]

Originally posted by corbo:

VR is for amateurs.
Real immersive sims transfer physical pain from avatars to players.

Yes, but even if all the senses are involved, the game will be an immersive sim, only if there is a 1-person view or if another camera view has a plausible justification.

[corbo]

Originally posted by Laicus:

Yes, but even if all the senses are involved, the game will be an immersive sim, only if there is a 1-person view or if another camera view has a plausible justification.

Tommyrot. A standard human body comes equipped with 2 visual sensors, therefore a single viewport game cannot provide the level of immersion we are entitled to.

[Laicus]

Originally posted by corbo:

Tommyrot. A standard human body comes equipped with 2 visual sensors, therefore a single viewport game cannot provide the level of immersion we are entitled to.

The vision simulation includes three main elements - a 1-person view, a stereo effect and a changeable focus. An ideal immersive sim should have all three elements, and having only a 1-person view is the minimum for an immersive sim, so WW is not an immersive sim.

[Traumaturgy]

Originally posted by corbo:

VR is for amateurs.
Real immersive sims transfer physical pain from avatars to players.

Maybe this is how the future will look like. There was this sf movie Strange days, when there was black market of recordings that allow a user to experience the recorder's memories and physical sensations (it was plugged to cerebral cortex). So you could for example record someone having sex and then experience it yourself. And movie was about investigation of a record of someone being killed, pretty dark to experience this person last moments, fear and all that.

I also remember that some adventure game from 80s or 90s have attached scratch card with names of areas in game and their sents, and you were supposed to scratch these areas at certain moments in game to smell what characters would smell. So for example you visit port in game, scratch the port part of card and it smells like fish :)
It didnt work very good, because smells were weak and volatile, but idea was cool nevertheless.

[corbo]

Originally posted by Traumaturgy:

Maybe this is how the future will look like. There was this sf movie Strange days, [...]

Cool movie, still worth a watch.
A different tech that would sell well, I bet, is the basis of a less known 2009 movie called Surrogates. Also worth a watch.

That scent tech was tried in cinema theatres decades ago, and failed (like so many 3D techs.) Since the 90s, smell immersion is done much better, with sprays, but it would cost too much for home use, just from the quantity of chemical compounds needed (and cans to be refilled.)
Besides, half our games would constantly stink of horse dung, and worse. I'd pass.
You can experience the smell tech in some science museums. If you're lucky, as those are still rare.

[Nx Machina]

An immersive sim is a video game that focuses on player agency with emergent systems and consistent rules and is a design philosophy. It can be 1st person, third person, isometric with a camera that rotates as long as the game sticks to the design philosophy.

[-maestropan-]

the definition doesn't mention "first person" anywhere:

An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that emphasizes player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer.

[wes_julien_MAC]

While we do respect your point of views, we believe immersive sim is a set of design values more than a genre or a fixed camera perspective. It's more about how the world is simulated and all systems intertwined to provide a simulation, where as much as possible the game reacts to player actions, sometimes in unpredicted ways (as opposed to all scripted), leading to emergent gameplay. This set of values can be found across different genres, be it FPS, RPG and other type of games. As someone else said on this thread, Ultima 7, despite being a top down RPG, can be considered in that regard as an immersive sim due to how its world was simulated etc.. In any case, thanks for sharing your opinions and point of view on this, we respect them all and are happy to read them and exchange on the topic! :)

[Laicus]

Originally posted by wes_julien_MAC:

While we do respect your point of views, we believe immersive sim is a set of design values more than a genre or a fixed camera perspective.

I played a demo of the latest version, and it's a great game that has a huge number of mechanics corresponding to immersive sims, and in the full version there is a real hardcore mode, and all this makes me even sadder, because this is exactly what I'm looking for in games, but the third-person view kills immersion, and the inability to watch and aiming vertically causes some kind of unpleasant feeling of stiffness. I could put up with a third-person view if I could bring the camera even closer and aim vertically, I hope it will be possible to do this with mods.

[Laicus]

Many thanks to Joe Wintergreen for creating a mod with a first-person view!
And I really hope he will make a version without transitions to a third person, I would be even more happy to play with such a version, even if there are some glitches.