Okay this is great so far

[Misery]

Seriously, I'm surprised by how far this has come since that super early version... er... whenever that was. How long has it been? I dont even know. But it's been interesting to watch this evolve over time.

I hadnt followed it as closely as I would have liked in the last year due to tendon issues (couldnt use the triggers on a PS4 controller without pain, because... oh I have no idea why). Finally got that dealt with, just in time for this to come out, and now I try it again, and it's really darned great so far.

I'm just about 5 hours in to my first playthrough with the release version and it's been a wild ride. Did a couple of small tasks, went to a clifftop ruin, which primarily consisted of falling off of a rock wall 7 times (just couldnt pass the climbing test, kept doing it stubbornly with pauses to heal until I finally got up, because dagnabit I'm not going to be beaten by a wall), got some rare books after solving a puzzle that really brought back some Unexplored 1 vibes. Used some ropes to get back down, all the while thinking "well I cleared that ruin out, wont have to deal with those cliffs again and I put ropes down in any case". Get back to Haven, turn in the books, find out about a thief who stole a whatever and ran off while I was gone, and if I can get the thing back I can accomplish a deed, so I see the map and find out that the thief went right to the clifftop ruin where I'd just been (spoiler, the ropes were gone when I got back there).

Stuff like that is reminding me of why I love procedural games (as if I needed reminding).

All of the different mechanics you guys have come up with are excellent and really add to the procedural/emergent aspects.

The world-gen in particular is spectacular, though after the first game I'd really have expected no less.

I can tell you guys put a ton of work and passion into this one, it really shows. Very, very well done.


I'll write up a review of it later after I've spent a good bit more time with it, there's still so much I havent seen yet.

[Slade]

Opposite experience for me. I'm forced to fight in every other encounter and there are tons of enemies and combat is just bad in that shields don't block damage and parrying doesn't work and every enemy hits you for 1/5th of your hp. There is no point in engaging with anything in the game when the first encounter is always going to be "30 bugs surround you as a surprise and then kill you." (For reference, I've finished the first game so I know how the combat goes, I'm not just bad.)

I guess it's an improvement over the betas in that I don't get softlocked and need to restart my whole character every other encounter anymore but I'm going to wait another couple years for patches to fix this thing and make it playable without having to stack 10 easy mode options.

[SpineFish]

I like the combat personally. Once you get some decent weapons and armor most encounters are doable with the variable being how much health you lose. Armor makes alot of difference as it should.

[macmanos2002]

The combat is very tactical, with attacking and retreating.
At mostly it is a basic combat model, but there are some things that going on , like weapon proficiencies , qualities, throwing, spears, shielding , parrying, timing, hitting multiple enemies with one blow etc.
It may seem like basic stuff , but it does the job really well, and also leaving room to enjoy all other great aspects of the game.

The feel when you have a torch in one hand, and a mace in the other, and you visit a dark cave or ruin, where you REALLY do not know what will you encounter, is priceless for a game of this scale.
Still after 8 hours, i encounter things i do not know how to interact with them, what they do, if they are hostile, weird plants, and traps, smokes etc.
The exploration value is really great!

No need for complicated combat models while there are so many things to enjoy from the game.

[stevo]

Originally posted by macmanos2002:

Still after 8 hours, i encounter things i do not know how to interact with them, what they do, if they are hostile, weird plants, and traps, smokes etc.
The exploration value is really great!

This just continues to be the whole experience for me, but it has the opposite effect of making the exploration tiresome to me.

Not that I want hand holding, but the whole thing just feels like one shot in the dark, that will probably need several hours of skimming YT to even understand what's actually the point of anything in the game

[macmanos2002]

Indeed different points of view, but this is healthy
On my side, i cannot imagine how did they manage to produce so many different things and stories and surprises, from a software and gameplay point of view.
Many games lose the exploration and surprise value really fast.
This is a true wonder of Procedural generation for a fantasy adventure game.

[Misery]

Originally posted by Slade:

Opposite experience for me. I'm forced to fight in every other encounter and there are tons of enemies and combat is just bad in that shields don't block damage and parrying doesn't work and every enemy hits you for 1/5th of your hp. There is no point in engaging with anything in the game when the first encounter is always going to be "30 bugs surround you as a surprise and then kill you." (For reference, I've finished the first game so I know how the combat goes, I'm not just bad.)

I guess it's an improvement over the betas in that I don't get softlocked and need to restart my whole character every other encounter anymore but I'm going to wait another couple years for patches to fix this thing and make it playable without having to stack 10 easy mode options.

I think the combat experience is going to vary wildly from one person to the next.

I've actually found that the combat is a bit on the easy side (without modifiers) with me usually losing very little health or none at all even if it's one of those "BWAHAHA HERE'S 30 GIANT LASER BEES" ones. Dont get me wrong I'll still stealth my way through encounters when possible (or talk my way out when that's an option) since it would only take a couple of derpy mistakes on my part to get a game over, but I sure seem to end up stabbing a lot of things.

But that's just me... I've also heard others say it's way too hard.

Though, this seems to happen with a lot of games in this genre really, the perception of difficulty by the players is totally all over the place.

I'm not sure where you're seeing that shields dont block damage though... when I'm using them they always do? As long as I'm holding the shield button anyway.

I will say though I dont yet know how 2-handed weapons will do, I've been using a shield and a whatever (currently an electric spear) the whole time.

Originally posted by stevo:

This just continues to be the whole experience for me, but it has the opposite effect of making the exploration tiresome to me.

Not that I want hand holding, but the whole thing just feels like one shot in the dark, that will probably need several hours of skimming YT to even understand what's actually the point of anything in the game

Is there something specific you're finding is too confusing?

Only thing I've found so far that doesnt make a whole lot of sense is the pink weirdness on the other side of the warp gate, I'm still not really sure what to do with that. Other than that though, a lot of things seem explained well enough (so far).

[SpineFish]

One thing ive found is that dual wielding is superior to sword and board - I had short sword and a sword both with the 20% cooldown reduction buff plus a mask sigiled up with a further swing cooldown buff + extra damage . I could pretty much swing/stab non stop alternating between the two.

[jd]

Yeah with sigils combat can get pretty wild.

Love this discussion, BTW. Melee combat is really hard to do well, especially with 3D assets like ours. I know respectable game developers that advice against including melee comabt in game for exactly that reason unless it is the focus of the game. It basically is a game dev specialty in its own right.

Personally I would love to get the combat to a higher level, whilst keeping the same tactical approach to it. But that would actually require us to hire somebody that's really good at these things. The reason is that I really want this mix of adventure and threat of combat to work. It puts more weight on those encounters that do get violent.

[misteroctopus]

Love the convo thats going on here. We understand our combat can be difficult to get the hang of. We sorta went into a different direction to what is expected.

For what we could manage, we chose to go for a more grounded combat model. We built upon the tactical combat of 1 and looked how each weapon could have a role in combat. Every weapon should be worthwhile in different situations. Also we tried to make combat as symmetrical as possible. The wayfarer is sorta 1.5 times stronger than a npc with the same stuff and skills. So a mob should definitely be lethal. And thats where magic comes into play. It functions as a force multiplier. With the right items and sigils you can truly become a powerhouse.

[agent011RYT]

Stuck in the same situation as Slade did.

I've watched Splattercat beforehand, and, just like him, tried to get some rumors before venturing out. Ended up getting 3 rumors (even though he got like 6-7 lol): key in the Yerden Garden, which is captured by Imperials; a sigil in a cave; a bandit cave.

In the first location I went, some random ruins, I encountered an enormous ground bug, that, apparently, explodes (damaging you, of course) and spawns 10 smaller bugs when it dies!! It's impossible to go through that swarm, and impossible to kill it.

Okay, went to a cave with a bandit who stole goods from a merchant. There, right at the cave's entrance, I encountered an Imperial and 2 lizard bandits armed with spears. I easily deal with the Imperial, but die to the lizards, becuase I dealt almost no damage to them, but they killed me almost in an instant...

Decided to go to a bandit camp. Well, there is no need to describe what happened there lol.
I'm feeling very frustrated... I also can't understand: is there any progression in the game? Like leveling system, or at least better equipment that you can find?


Nevertheless, I'm hoping to see this project updated more and more, I will definitely continue to try to master this game. I really like that every time you die the world continues to grow and change. Lore is also great, as it was the main focus of the game. Combat needs some improvement, but otherwise, this game is great!

P.S. It turned out that only sword can parry... Tutorial doesn't specify that, it just says "if you face the enemy with a ready weapon you'll parry". It counfused me at first lol.

[Misery]

Originally posted by agent011RYT:

I'm feeling very frustrated... I also can't understand: is there any progression in the game? Like leveling system, or at least better equipment that you can find?

There's a few things you can do to progress, yes.

The big one you want to try to do is to follow through with rumors/whatever and accomplish "deeds", I think that's what the game calls them. Whenever you manage to pull one off, the next time you camp you'll be given a chance to learn a new skill (the skills available will be different based on the type of deed accomplished). This option looks like an open book in the camping menu.

You can tell an area you're in has a deed available because the game will give you a message like "find the treasure in this area" or "repair the magic gizmo thing" which will hang in the upper left part of the screen until you either accomplish it or leave that area. These traits you can earn are quite useful, so go after them when possible.

As equipment goes, yes, there is tons of different things you can find. Traders (particularly smiths) will often have weapons and wearable stuff for you, and some traders may even carry magical rod things. You're going to want to go and collect things first though (like the little gold rings and other doodads that just say they're worth something in their description but do nothing else) so that you have plenty to trade with.

In addition, any equipment, be it weapons or rings or whatever, that has a sigil slot can be upgraded. Sigils can be tough to get but they are very useful. Sometimes you may use them to activate something in a special location (like repairing the gate thing in Haven) but you can also take sigils to a forge (there's one in Haven, it isnt the only one though) and plop down some equipment onto it, jam the sigil into that, and BAM, you've got an upgraded whatever.

Also, smiths can often upgrade things in different ways too, which you can find in their trading menu (looks like an anvil with a + icon on it).

Generally upgrading equipment can be really nice. I've currently got myself this loopy legendary spear, it's been upgraded for damage and reach and it's powered by lightning because why the heck not. Lovely weapon, good at stabbing things.

Note that it seems like some equipment *requires* some sort of upgrade to function. Like the magic rod things, they dont seem to do anything at all until you've given them a sigil. Once you do though, they do crazy stuff.

Keep in mind though that equipment and whatever isnt just about combat. Pay attention to what kinds of hazards and things your equipment and skills can allow you to handle. Monsters arent the only things that can completely screw you over. If you're going into a deep forest for instance you're going to want something that can cancel the "wilderness" hazard that frequently appears on the map in forests.

Other than that, the best piece of advice is to just be super careful. Dont fight when there's no good reason to.

That being said, combat IS possible even against tougher things. Position yourself carefully, pay attention to the enemy, get a sense for what they can do, and dont forget that you may have something helpful in your inventory that could get you through a nasty situation (a scroll or a buffing potion for instance).

Hope that helps at least a bit.

[ThatGuyKhi]

Originally posted by Misery:

Originally posted by agent011RYT:

I'm feeling very frustrated... I also can't understand: is there any progression in the game? Like leveling system, or at least better equipment that you can find?

There's a few things you can do to progress, yes.

The big one you want to try to do is to follow through with rumors/whatever and accomplish "deeds", I think that's what the game calls them. Whenever you manage to pull one off, the next time you camp you'll be given a chance to learn a new skill (the skills available will be different based on the type of deed accomplished). This option looks like an open book in the camping menu.

You can tell an area you're in has a deed available because the game will give you a message like "find the treasure in this area" or "repair the magic gizmo thing" which will hang in the upper left part of the screen until you either accomplish it or leave that area. These traits you can earn are quite useful, so go after them when possible.

As equipment goes, yes, there is tons of different things you can find. Traders (particularly smiths) will often have weapons and wearable stuff for you, and some traders may even carry magical rod things. You're going to want to go and collect things first though (like the little gold rings and other doodads that just say they're worth something in their description but do nothing else) so that you have plenty to trade with.

In addition, any equipment, be it weapons or rings or whatever, that has a sigil slot can be upgraded. Sigils can be tough to get but they are very useful. Sometimes you may use them to activate something in a special location (like repairing the gate thing in Haven) but you can also take sigils to a forge (there's one in Haven, it isnt the only one though) and plop down some equipment onto it, jam the sigil into that, and BAM, you've got an upgraded whatever.

Also, smiths can often upgrade things in different ways too, which you can find in their trading menu (looks like an anvil with a + icon on it).

Generally upgrading equipment can be really nice. I've currently got myself this loopy legendary spear, it's been upgraded for damage and reach and it's powered by lightning because why the heck not. Lovely weapon, good at stabbing things.

Note that it seems like some equipment *requires* some sort of upgrade to function. Like the magic rod things, they dont seem to do anything at all until you've given them a sigil. Once you do though, they do crazy stuff.

Keep in mind though that equipment and whatever isnt just about combat. Pay attention to what kinds of hazards and things your equipment and skills can allow you to handle. Monsters arent the only things that can completely screw you over. If you're going into a deep forest for instance you're going to want something that can cancel the "wilderness" hazard that frequently appears on the map in forests.

Other than that, the best piece of advice is to just be super careful. Dont fight when there's no good reason to.

That being said, combat IS possible even against tougher things. Position yourself carefully, pay attention to the enemy, get a sense for what they can do, and dont forget that you may have something helpful in your inventory that could get you through a nasty situation (a scroll or a buffing potion for instance).

Hope that helps at least a bit.

This was actually helpful in realizing how much depth there is.

[agent011RYT]

Thanks for helping out!

Originally posted by Misery:

There's a few things you can do to progress, yes.

The big one you want to try to do is to follow through with rumors/whatever and accomplish "deeds", I think that's what the game calls them. Whenever you manage to pull one off, the next time you camp you'll be given a chance to learn a new skill (the skills available will be different based on the type of deed accomplished). This option looks like an open book in the camping menu.

You can tell an area you're in has a deed available because the game will give you a message like "find the treasure in this area" or "repair the magic gizmo thing" which will hang in the upper left part of the screen until you either accomplish it or leave that area. These traits you can earn are quite useful, so go after them when possible.

As equipment goes, yes, there is tons of different things you can find. Traders (particularly smiths) will often have weapons and wearable stuff for you, and some traders may even carry magical rod things. You're going to want to go and collect things first though (like the little gold rings and other doodads that just say they're worth something in their description but do nothing else) so that you have plenty to trade with.

In addition, any equipment, be it weapons or rings or whatever, that has a sigil slot can be upgraded. Sigils can be tough to get but they are very useful. Sometimes you may use them to activate something in a special location (like repairing the gate thing in Haven) but you can also take sigils to a forge (there's one in Haven, it isnt the only one though) and plop down some equipment onto it, jam the sigil into that, and BAM, you've got an upgraded whatever.

Also, smiths can often upgrade things in different ways too, which you can find in their trading menu (looks like an anvil with a + icon on it).

Generally upgrading equipment can be really nice. I've currently got myself this loopy legendary spear, it's been upgraded for damage and reach and it's powered by lightning because why the heck not. Lovely weapon, good at stabbing things.

Note that it seems like some equipment *requires* some sort of upgrade to function. Like the magic rod things, they dont seem to do anything at all until you've given them a sigil. Once you do though, they do crazy stuff.

Keep in mind though that equipment and whatever isnt just about combat. Pay attention to what kinds of hazards and things your equipment and skills can allow you to handle. Monsters arent the only things that can completely screw you over. If you're going into a deep forest for instance you're going to want something that can cancel the "wilderness" hazard that frequently appears on the map in forests.

Other than that, the best piece of advice is to just be super careful. Dont fight when there's no good reason to.

That being said, combat IS possible even against tougher things. Position yourself carefully, pay attention to the enemy, get a sense for what they can do, and dont forget that you may have something helpful in your inventory that could get you through a nasty situation (a scroll or a buffing potion for instance).

Hope that helps at least a bit.

I understand that this game is one of the "the more you play, the better it gets" types, that doesn't open up most of information in the beginning. Well, it's still a rouge-like, after all. I just didn't like how it depended on world generation too much.
You see, as I've already stated in my previous message, I only got 3 rumors/deeds that ended up being too hard for me becuase of the strength of enemies, both random (like those 2 bandits with spears in a cave) and quest ones (that bandit camp). I find it hard to battle humanoid enemies, becuase they almost never attack first! They just back off and wait for me to strike, so they can counter-attack. So, basically, early-game is hard to pass, but then it gets better.

Thanks again for helping!

[misteroctopus]

If you find dealing with enemies difficult, try a different weapon type. Throwing weapons ans bows are great in taking out enemies who keep their distance. I usually have throwing and a sword and board preset on hand to cover both. Throwing weapons with returning(1 flow sigil) are especially nice. Also stealth is a good way to get a jump on enemies as well. If you can get drop on them and you can get a good couple of hits in, enemies tend to want to run away from you.

[Vivisector 9999]

If you can find a strong weapon and a Flow Sigil, you can enhance it at a forge to not have a cooldown. This makes most of the combats MUCH easier. (Sometimes, the wandering merchants near Haven's gate have random Sigils.)