Summoning Sucks

[Chilkoot]

It really does. Even with the Necromancer's Tome. Random stats, unreliable mechanics... one dude on here thought it was "exploit-level" good. He is wrong. It's balls.

That's is all.

[svdp]

Wait, wait, wait... what about what this guy said, then? :

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1091980/discussions/0/3112529260625102420/

[Chilkoot]

The number of wasted turns and effort to get a skeleton to that point is what's wrong - it makes no sense in regular "I want to kill this boss" kind of play (look at the boss' health compared to his party's status). *Can* you make an uber skeleton by sacrificing much smarter gameplay? Yes. Can and should this be part of a normal playthrough? No, it's a ridiculous strategy.

It's a bit like my all-bards playthrough. You can technically do it if you want a unique challenge, but it's something you do as a novelty or "exhibition game" knowing you're using a ridiculous strategy just for kicks. It would be cruel and unusual to recommend to anyone this is a viable strategy to play the game. Akin to hazin/pranking at the most generous interpretation.

[svdp]

Originally posted by Chilkoot:

The number of wasted turns and effort to get a skeleton to that point is what's wrong - it makes no sense in regular "I want to kill this boss" kind of play (look at the boss' health compared to his party's status). *Can* you make an uber skeleton by sacrificing much smarter gameplay? Yes. Can and should this be part of a normal playthrough? No, it's a ridiculous strategy.

It's a bit like my all-bards playthrough. You can technically do it if you want a unique challenge, but it's something you do as a novelty or "exhibition game" knowing you're using a ridiculous strategy just for kicks. It would be cruel and unusual to recommend to anyone this is a viable strategy to play the game. Akin to hazin/pranking at the most generous interpretation.

So... can't it be used in any realistic combat, potentially? Like in long-winded attrition-battles with skeleton mobs, or something?

[Chilkoot]

Originally posted by svdp:

So... can't it be used in any realistic combat, potentially? Like in long-winded attrition-battles with skeleton mobs, or something?

OK, I was being a bit harsh, and If you're playing an *extremely* defensive game, there's a case where it could be useful if you really invested in it. For example:

There was one dude did a Haernhold walkthrough on youtube that relied on his Fichti tank getting smacked over and over to increase strength for his main offensive power. Combat would last like a dozen turns or more with this strategy, and it was messy as hell, but it worked (who knows how many failed attempts it really took him though).

Of course, I had to give it the old college try just to see if there's any way to make it viable (that that other strategy that was posted could never work IRL).

So... If you take the Meditation path that gives 4 SP/meditate, without spending *additional opportunity* you can still pull 5SP/turn using a single Meditate opportunity. That will let you summon a wraith every turn, and then consume it to feed a skeleton. So it takes a looong time to get it "powerful", but once you get the cycle going, you can bump up one tier per turn, following the below power table:

Round	Tier	HP	Max AC	Deflect	Chop	Storm (x3)
1	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	I	150	20	11	18	13
3	II	210	49	29	48	34
4	II	270	67	47	78	55
5	III	330	85	65	108	76
6	IV	390	103	83	138	97
7	V	450	121	101	168	118
8	VI	510	139	119	198	139
9	VII	570	157	137	228	160
10	VIII	630	175	155	258	181
11	IX	690	193	173	288	202
12	X	750	211	191	318	223
13	XI	810	229	209	348	244
14	XII	870	247	227	378	265
15	XIII	930	265	245	408	286
16	XIV	990	283	263	438	307
17	XV	1050	301	281	468	328
18	XVI	1110	319	299	498	349
19	XVII	1170	337	317	528	370
20	XVIII	1230	355	335	558	391
21	XIX	1290	373	353	588	412
22	XX	1350	391	371	618	433
23	XXI	1410	409	389	648	454
24	XXII	1470	427	407	678	475
25	XXIII	1530	445	425	708	496
26	XXIV	1590	463	443	738	517
27	XXV	1650	481	461	768	538
28	XXVI	1710	499	479	798	559
29	XXVII	1770	517	497	828	580
30	XXVIII	1830	535	515	858	601
31	XXIX	1890	553	533	888	622
32	XXX	1950	571	551	918	643
33	XXXI	2010	589	569	948	664
34	XXXII	2070	607	587	978	685
35	XXXIII	2130	625	605	1008	706

I mean, it can get to insane levels, yes, but you'd *REALLY* need to design your whole party and strategy around combat lasting a long time to make it useful:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2680690243

EDIT: There are ways to accelerate this process a bit. Keeping "To Me!" active on a Warrior and using either Apprentice or Sorcerer boots, then pairing that with Duotime on cooldown, and possibly Spellsong if you're willing to spend yet another slot on this undertaking.

I'm going to do some testing and see how STR, INT and other stats affect summons and the buff from consuming a minion. There may be a build to make summoning useful in everyday, even if it's just for like every 5th fight...

HERB takes longer to ramp up and his AC is crap, but his primary ability (SMASH) has no cooldown and deals +2 damage for every STR, so his DPS can skyrocket very quickly:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2680813514

EDIT2: This is crazy exploitable with the infinite mana bug. With the right skill and gear setup, you can literally beat *any* encounter in the game on the first round, even for mobs that have Headstrong and are immune to magic/mental damage. I think I'll make a video of 1-shotting some particular boss...

[svdp]

hmm... impressive. I *really* think you should make an "Ultimate Guide to BT4", chilkoot. I think it would be awesome. ;-)

Edit: Wait, what? Your edit 2 now says it's OP?

[Chilkoot]

Originally posted by svdp:

Edit: Wait, what? Your edit 2 now says it's OP?

Haha - right? Summoning itself is not actually OP (quite the opposite, IMO), but there's an infinite mana exploit that lets you steamroll even the hardest firgts. With infinite mana, you can just spam Mangar's Mallet over and over and wipe out any group of bads.

The exception is (very rare) mobs with the "Headstrong" attribute, which makes them immune to non-physical damage. Pairing the infinite mana exploit with the necromancer's tome special ability means that - if you have the patience and enough opportunity points - you can burn through even Headstrong opponents without letting them get a swing in, though I suspect there are spells (like fire, etc) that would work the same - I honestly haven't really tested that out much as the exploit ruins the game.

[svdp]

Originally posted by Chilkoot:

Originally posted by svdp:

Edit: Wait, what? Your edit 2 now says it's OP?

Haha - right? Summoning itself is not actually OP (quite the opposite, IMO), but there's an infinite mana exploit that lets you steamroll even the hardest firgts. With infinite mana, you can just spam Mangar's Mallet over and over and wipe out any group of bads.

The exception is (very rare) mobs with the "Headstrong" attribute, which makes them immune to non-physical damage. Pairing the infinite mana exploit with the necromancer's tome special ability means that - if you have the patience and enough opportunity points - you can burn through even Headstrong opponents without letting them get a swing in, though I suspect there are spells (like fire, etc) that would work the same - I honestly haven't really tested that out much as the exploit ruins the game.

I see. I do seem to remember something about that exploit. Think it was mentionned before on the forum, but I never looked into it, back then. Was it something with moving forth and back with mana-slip featware, or something? Or what was it again?

[Chilkoot]

Originally posted by svdp:

I see. I do seem to remember something about that exploit. Think it was mentionned before on the forum, but I never looked into it, back then. Was it something with moving forth and back with mana-slip featware, or something? Or what was it again?

I'm working on a little write-up for it, and should have something posted tomorrow (or soon, at least). There's kind of a "minimum requirements" and "optimal setup" depending on what people want to accomplish.

This tactic is right from the official forums, BTW - devs were aware and considered it more of an Easter Egg, just like the the endless cavorting chains if you can time it right. I asked one guy that worked on the game ages ago, and he said (paraphrase) "Oh, we know about it. This is a single player non-competitive game, and you need a few hidden things like this to appeal to a certain audience. It's harmless."

Hopefully that little mini-guide will go up tomorrow, and I may include 2 or 3 other uh... "hidden features" as well ;)

[svdp]

Originally posted by Chilkoot:

Originally posted by svdp:

I see. I do seem to remember something about that exploit. Think it was mentionned before on the forum, but I never looked into it, back then. Was it something with moving forth and back with mana-slip featware, or something? Or what was it again?

I'm working on a little write-up for it, and should have something posted tomorrow (or soon, at least). There's kind of a "minimum requirements" and "optimal setup" depending on what people want to accomplish.

This tactic is right from the official forums, BTW - devs were aware and considered it more of an Easter Egg, just like the the endless cavorting chains if you can time it right. I asked one guy that worked on the game ages ago, and he said (paraphrase) "Oh, we know about it. This is a single player non-competitive game, and you need a few hidden things like this to appeal to a certain audience. It's harmless."

Hopefully that little mini-guide will go up tomorrow, and I may include 2 or 3 other uh... "hidden features" as well ;)

hmm... well, it's in the eye of the beholder, I guess, but... generally speaking, I'm not too much a fan of such exploits, even if they're considered features or easter-eggs.

That said, now that it's known and I'm already playing it for the third time, I might as well just see what it does.

But as a dev, I wouldn't let it remain in my game if I were aware of it.

Sure! Start with a lil mini-guide! And then we'll expand and expand, and conquer the world!! (evil laughter)

[Chilkoot]

Originally posted by svdp:

But as a dev, I wouldn't let it remain in my game if I were aware of it.

I agree. What I gleaned from the conversation was that they put resources on "game breaking" bugs first (like things that prevent the main quest from progressing), then prioritize the rest. Not sure if these mechanics were intentional, happy accidents, or just too low priority to address.

I personally would have removed the infinite mana and eternal cavorting issues, but you do need some really good "fun" mechanics that if you figure them out give you great combat abilities. I noticed with the all-Bard party there are some almost exploit-level mechanics with Spellsong and a few others, and I really do think these are deliberate and deliberately difficult to uncover.

[svdp]

heh... Well... fixing game-breaking bugs like crashes first, seems the logical thing to do, so I'm all for it. ;-)

But it's a bit pity they didn't get more time to get rid of the more lower-level bugs. I'm never really bothered by those myself, in a personal context, but it would make the game feel a bit more... neat/smooth.

so anyway, without the exploit summoning isn't really viable then, unless in peculiar circumstances (and I don't like drawing out battles TOO long). the necromancer book was a nice addition, but they should have made a set or something, like a "necromancer crown", which let you reduce the summoning time with 25%-50%, or something.

I'm planning on using the summoning branch now this third time, just because I hardly tried it much. Because the little time I spend on it, it really took too much time to summon anything worthwhile. Fight was usually over before anything came of it. ;-) Or, it was just too weak and got one-shotted the moment after it got summoned. so it wasn't really my thing, and I dropped it.

but since I realize I made no attempt at optimizing for it, and neither did I use the book, I still have some trying out to do in that branch, at least - most others I have done already. alas, as far as I remember, the book doesn't shorten the *time* it takes to summon.

[Chilkoot]

Originally posted by svdp:

I made no attempt at optimizing for it

After some testing, it appears all summoning power scales with STR, so you're going to be looking for archmage-track gear (vs the other branches).

The necromancer tome itself is a 2-slotter, but if you elect not to use it, you'll have lots of +STR options for both main and off-hand.

[svdp]

Originally posted by Chilkoot:

Originally posted by svdp:

I made no attempt at optimizing for it

After some testing, it appears all summoning power scales with STR, so you're going to be looking for archmage-track gear (vs the other branches).

The necromancer tome itself is a 2-slotter, but if you elect not to use it, you'll have lots of +STR options for both main and off-hand.

There is so much based on STR, and so little on INT. Only arcane spells, I believe. Inxile could have done a better job at balancing. The summoning branch would have been a logical option for int based spells, me thinks.

Also +2 int is a meagre bonus for choosing such a character as practitioner, since I believe that's a one-time flatrate? At the very least, they could have done like woth another there and said another two times a +2, like at level 10 and level 20, for instance.

[svdp]

Is the mana exploit the one with the 'come to me' stance? Think I read about something like that a few days ago.

[Chilkoot]

Originally posted by svdp:

Is the mana exploit the one with the 'come to me' stance? Think I read about something like that a few days ago.

Yeah, sorry, forgot to write that up. What you need:

• A Bard with a Shofar in her offhand.
  
• A Warrior with Battle Standard (trink) equipped
  
• A Practitioner with Sorcerer's Slippers equipped

What you do:

• Get your Bard up to 7 stacks drunk then case Rhyme of Duotime
  
• Put your Warrior in the To Me! stance
  
• Move your Practitioner to squares adjacent to the Warrior - this will generate 1 mana per move, and you can do it an infinite number of times.

There are cheap and chipper ways to do this on the second turn using low-cost booze, or if you REALLY need to take that boss in one round without him attacking at all, you can use the Devil's Brew - there's only about a dozen available in the game, so that tactic should be saved for something special.

It's boring as hell to do this, but if you *really* can't get past a particular boss, this will do it for you. Even if the boss is immune to magic (headstrong), you can still equip the Necro tome and just keep summoning/sacrificing until your skele can one-shot any boss.