Jaheira's build - The Sylvan Scimitar

[MOK]

When High Harper J arrives, you can respec her in whatever way you wish. So asking "whats a good Jaheira build?" is a bit goofy. But that's the question here. So the caveat is that it's meant to keep a foot in the door on her lore and current presentation, while pulling her weight effectively in a Tactician+ group.

One of the biggest touchstones is the weapon she's got. The special mechanics suggest it could be used as a build-guiding item. A "+1 Scimitar that allows its wielder to use their Spellcasting Ability modifier instead of their Dexterity modifier to determine their Attack Roll bonus." Meaning that she could connect reliably in melee while continuing to pump Wisdom.

So I've been trying to imagine the utility here, and I suspect that it's actually not very good. After all, it doesn't say anything about the weapon's damage. Melee hits will only get more damaging via gear, or boosting dex which defeats the purpose. So I'm trying to explore what is the potential purpose of connecting in melee with low damage?

I rule out wildshape, because that's redundant with Halsin, and it doesn't do anything with her High Harper identity nor that iconic sword.

Some things I'm looking at so far: Oil of Bane, Oil of Diminution, Ensnaring Strike(Ranger). These lead me to consider the potential of a melee controller, a Bounty Hunter Gloomstalker, who misty-steps around the space, goes in on a target for the setup, so that someone else can dunk on the mob.

Their use of Concentration is typically on Entangle, Ensnaring Strike, sometimes Hold Person, and if not, then Enhance Ability.

The gearing direction is focused on items with Arcane Acuity(+Spell Attack & DC) with a dose of Elixir of Battlemage Power, and then an item with Arcane Synergy(+Spellcasting Ability Modifier), in order to make sure that the CC is as hard as possible to resist.
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Arcane_Acuity_(Condition)
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Arcane_Synergy_(Condition)

As for dual wielding, just no. Dueling Style seems good though.

Leveling breakdown I'm not sure about. 1 is locked to druid because that's how she's presented. Maybe ranger for either 3 or 5 levels, then dip 1 rogue for stealth specialties and a sneak attack die, then stick with Land Druid to max utility.
Alternately, stick with ranger, but it doesn't seem like much more is gained this way.

So I'm interested in what other routes people have used with Jaheira? And if you can think of improvements on the general idea of the ensnaring high harper.
Or whether banking on this sword and the approach is just not worthwhile? Because I'm on the fence.

[MOK]

Started testing and although it's not mentioned in the item description, the sword DOES gain damage from wisdom. So this is a top notch item.

So far it looks like she will be able to keep up somewhat with melee damage output. Particularly with Arcane Synergy and other wisdom bonuses. There's further melee damage boosting options: hunters mark, sneak attack, Duelling.

So far the general idea seems to work: If you can keep afflicting a condition with a weapon attack(like ensnaring strike, or various druid spells), that should keep boosting weapon damage and spell DC and spell damage in a sort of feedback loop.

Seems solid so far. Might not even need to do any multiclassing to keep this working, if you just want full & pure druid caster power at the expense of some melee damage. Which in turn restores the viability of wildshape, but that still doesn't really fit into the playstyle.

Either way, the combination of arcane synergy+acuity, debuff weapon oils, and the Sylvan Scimitar seems like a winner. Feels like a proper Jaheira Gish to me.

[Belegc]

I tried to keep the theme of a dual-wielding fighter/druid she seems to be and went with 2Fighter/10 Spore druid.
took Dual-wielder and ASI (1 Con/1Wiz). start Fighter for the Con saves and dual-wielder fighting style.
she dual wields the infernal rapier together with the sylvan scimitar. if going for clothing rather than the druid light armor maybe replacing 1 fighter level with a monk level is a good idea.

[MOK]

After running the druid/ranger/rogue combo a bit longer, I thought it worthwhile to try out druid 9/thief 3, no ranger levels. There's a lot of demand for bonus actions, and some redundancies between the three classes. The loss of a second attack is made up for with gaining earlier haste with the Land Druid.

But I also found that the Arcane Acuity item I was attempting to rely on is bugged - Gloves of Battlemage Power. They do not proc under any circumstance.
The Helmet of arcane acuity does works to get this buff, but that's an important slot for Synergy buff I had wanted.

The Diadem of Arcane Synergy is bugged as well - It procs on anything and everything, constantly. Simply jumping procs it.

I don't have the Synergy ring unfortunately, so until these bugs are fixed I'm ditching Synergy, in favor of Acuity in the head slot. Spell attack and DC is more important than weapon damage.

In the hand slot, I'm trying out Daredevil gloves, which seem to support the style of running up to something and using CC while in melee range.

Also found that it's just really best for her to use a shield and not sacrifice AC. She really needs that AC considering this approach. Ketherics Shield also applies some extra spell DC.

Overall, the concept is working. Jaheira makes a setup, puts in battle control, is very mobile, puts in decent melee damage, but is instrumental for another character to knock em down.

[MOK]

Originally posted by Belegc:

I tried to keep the theme of a dual-wielding fighter/druid she seems to be and went with 2Fighter/10 Spore druid.
took Dual-wielder and ASI (1 Con/1Wiz). start Fighter for the Con saves and dual-wielder fighting style.
she dual wields the infernal rapier together with the sylvan scimitar. if going for clothing rather than the druid light armor maybe replacing 1 fighter level with a monk level is a good idea.

I'm interested, but this sounds pretty weak on paper. Dual wielding doesn't throw out a lot of damage unless you're geared entirely to boost the attacks with stuff like elemental dice. Is there a synergy going on that makes this competitive? Whats the builds tactical intention?

[jonnin]

hmm. what happens if you dual wield that thing with a flame blade (upcast to 5d6?) which ALSO uses wisdom as the stat? If you don't sleep a lot you may need something else between uses of it, but maybe in lesser fights she can wildshape or something?
Then all she needs for stats are 20 wis & 14 or so in dex (for AC) and some con (16?).

If not that, SHILLELAGH also makes the weapon use wisdom for its stat, so you could use a good staff in the other hand when flame blade isn't worth the spell slot?

[Belegc]

Originally posted by MOK:

Originally posted by Belegc:

I tried to keep the theme of a dual-wielding fighter/druid she seems to be and went with 2Fighter/10 Spore druid.
took Dual-wielder and ASI (1 Con/1Wiz). start Fighter for the Con saves and dual-wielder fighting style.
she dual wields the infernal rapier together with the sylvan scimitar. if going for clothing rather than the druid light armor maybe replacing 1 fighter level with a monk level is a good idea.

I'm interested, but this sounds pretty weak on paper. Dual wielding doesn't throw out a lot of damage unless you're geared entirely to boost the attacks with stuff like elemental dice. Is there a synergy going on that makes this competitive? Whats the builds tactical intention?

Its not supposed to be mega-strong, I just tried to keep the theme of Jaheira as a dual-wielding fighter/druid since this is how she is built and make it work somehow. went with the more melee-oriented druid sub-class (spores) since we already have a shift-shaping druid companion already (Halsin).

I don't find Druids to be very strong on any iteration of D&D I've played (3.5, Pathfinder, 5e) but maybe its just me don't know how to play with them.

[MOK]

Originally posted by jonnin:

hmm. what happens if you dual wield that thing with a flame blade (upcast to 5d6?) which ALSO uses wisdom as the stat? If you don't sleep a lot you may need something else between uses of it, but maybe in lesser fights she can wildshape or something?
Then all she needs for stats are 20 wis & 14 or so in dex (for AC) and some con (16?).

If not that, SHILLELAGH also makes the weapon use wisdom for its stat, so you could use a good staff in the other hand when flame blade isn't worth the spell slot?

I really like Shellelagh, but it's pretty much the same as casting no spell and simply using the sylvan scimitar.

Theres actually an item interaction - not sure if it's still there - that makes flame blade pretty powerful. There's some kinda fire helmet I think in Waukeens that, when paired with flame blade, makes an unintentional powerhouse, and you wouldn't know it by reading the item description.

But other than that interaction(exploit?), it seems that using a flameblade is not really an upgrade, just a side-grade, and she's still not excelling at combat damage relative to a more dedicated character you could swap in like Karlach or Laezel. This is why I find Jaheira's build so compelling as a puzzle. Gotta find a way to fit her into an open gap and excel, when you've got all these other companions before her.

You can just slice through the gordian knot by getting rid of her lvl 1 druid and ignoring thematics. But I like the challenge.

Originally posted by Belegc:

Its not supposed to be mega-strong, I just tried to keep the theme of Jaheira as a dual-wielding fighter/druid since this is how she is built and make it work somehow. went with the more melee-oriented druid sub-class (spores) since we already have a shift-shaping druid companion already (Halsin).

I don't find Druids to be very strong on any iteration of D&D I've played (3.5, Pathfinder, 5e) but maybe its just me don't know how to play with them.

Druids always seem to suffer in CRPG's. At the tabletop, there's a lot of creative a player can come up with to make the druid an exceptional force, but it doesn't translate well to video games. Even at some tables, they shine the more loose the GM is and the crazier the player is. Going at things head on, they just kinda suck IMO.

BG3 has actually done the best so far at making druids stronger though, which is cool. But even in BG3, it seems like an indirect approach is what they're all about, just like in tabletop. This is why I don't feel like multiclassing a druid with a fighter makes much sense, and why dual wielding builds on a dead-end.

[MOK]

There's an early act 3 item that seems to by a complete synergy with what I was trying to do with Jaheira, and treat her like a control spellsword. Ring of the Mystic Scoundrel.
This thing is perfect, and its tying the whole concept together with big fat bow.
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Band_of_the_Mystic_Scoundrel

Jaheira's druid levels can give you access to hold person, one of the best spells. But it gets resisted a lot, and it's pretty expensive on the action economy. But when combined with a thief's second bonus action, and some items to increase her spell DC, and perhaps a cast of Oil of Malice or Oil of Bane for a great debuff, this ring turns her into a control machine.

I don't like leaning on late-game items, but its simply perfect. And the druid/thief build definitely works well prior to this item. The only question for me now is how much of which class is the right balance, and when does one take them.

[Belegc]

Originally posted by MOK:

Originally posted by jonnin:

hmm. what happens if you dual wield that thing with a flame blade (upcast to 5d6?) which ALSO uses wisdom as the stat? If you don't sleep a lot you may need something else between uses of it, but maybe in lesser fights she can wildshape or something?
Then all she needs for stats are 20 wis & 14 or so in dex (for AC) and some con (16?).

If not that, SHILLELAGH also makes the weapon use wisdom for its stat, so you could use a good staff in the other hand when flame blade isn't worth the spell slot?

I really like Shellelagh, but it's pretty much the same as casting no spell and simply using the sylvan scimitar.

Theres actually an item interaction - not sure if it's still there - that makes flame blade pretty powerful. There's some kinda fire helmet I think in Waukeens that, when paired with flame blade, makes an unintentional powerhouse, and you wouldn't know it by reading the item description.

But other than that interaction(exploit?), it seems that using a flameblade is not really an upgrade, just a side-grade, and she's still not excelling at combat damage relative to a more dedicated character you could swap in like Karlach or Laezel. This is why I find Jaheira's build so compelling as a puzzle. Gotta find a way to fit her into an open gap and excel, when you've got all these other companions before her.

You can just slice through the gordian knot by getting rid of her lvl 1 druid and ignoring thematics. But I like the challenge.

Originally posted by Belegc:

Its not supposed to be mega-strong, I just tried to keep the theme of Jaheira as a dual-wielding fighter/druid since this is how she is built and make it work somehow. went with the more melee-oriented druid sub-class (spores) since we already have a shift-shaping druid companion already (Halsin).

I don't find Druids to be very strong on any iteration of D&D I've played (3.5, Pathfinder, 5e) but maybe its just me don't know how to play with them.

Druids always seem to suffer in CRPG's. At the tabletop, there's a lot of creative a player can come up with to make the druid an exceptional force, but it doesn't translate well to video games. Even at some tables, they shine the more loose the GM is and the crazier the player is. Going at things head on, they just kinda suck IMO.

BG3 has actually done the best so far at making druids stronger though, which is cool. But even in BG3, it seems like an indirect approach is what they're all about, just like in tabletop. This is why I don't feel like multiclassing a druid with a fighter makes much sense, and why dual wielding builds on a dead-end.

I agree with everything you wrote here. its a shame we got two companions of a class which doesn't excel at anything. maybe you can consider something less traditional like a Druid (Circle of the Land)/Cleric (War or Tempest)? you can build her as an armored offensive divine caster with a lot of spells, and run Shadowheart as the more "support" Cleric with the Staff of Arcane Blessing.
there is some gear with +Spell DC to support that.

[Edstyles]

ull have more success with meele with a bard than a druid, no idea why she uses scimitars.While bards are the masters of scimitars.

Probably just pure caster might be better on a druid

[MOK]

Druid of land 9 / Thief 3
Max wisdom ASI
Sylvan Scimitar
Helmet of Arcane Acuity
Any Breastplate + shield
Ring of the Mystic Scoundrel
Daredevil Gloves
Oil of Bane/Malice
Hold person

Thats it, that's the build. This is an extremely effective druid that feels like the High Harper and the character from BG 1. Misty step to a target, slap it with your oiled up debuff sword, use a bonus action for Hold Person/etc. Proceed to win. And in between, you've got all those other druid options, not that you need them, and she can take care of your Slight Of Hand duties.

This is a really good urban druid that plays like a Gish, and all the items are accessible/acquired by the time you get Jaheira.

[Edstyles]

not bad , but sadly a bard can do all that better.
extra attack + bonus with rogue or counterspell + additional spell if lore.
bardic inspiration based attacks that work in meele and ranged or support bardic inspirations.
helmet of arcane acuity should work on bard too.
a fighting stance in the form of dual wield for extra offhand damage.
face of the party
better stealth and sleight of hand.

[MOK]

er... yes...? The point is to use Jaheira and make her competent while being true to RP, said it in the first post. There's a lot of things that are better than this, but this thread is about jaheira.

[Xanshi]

Well i just made lore friendly by doing Fighter 2/ Druid 10.

Using two weapon fighting style. Picking up Circle of the Land - Coastal. The reason i chose coastal is to get misty step for battlefield movement and mirror image which non concentration spell that adds 3 ac.

Then using my other spells are mainly for battlefield control like spike growth and plant growth. Concentration are mainly use on a summon spells.