Dammon and the Strange Ox

[deviousity]

I killed the strange ox in act 1. Dammon didn't appear in act 2. This amounted to a trade-off: give up a vendor with at least one powerful item, claim a very good ring, fairly early. Also, certain things can not be done without him appearing there. I did not know at the time Dammon was linked to the ox. It's dead now so I can't see if there's any connection between them in quests. I had already saved the grove and all the tieflings were gone before I killed the ox. It was acting very shady, so I thought it was a shadow druid infiltrator. The fact that it dropped a ring related to shape-shifting seemed to confirm my suspicions at the time. Is there some legitimate reason for them to be linked this way? If not, please unlink them. I inadvertently broke some major content in my game to get the ring, with zero clue that it would have the impact it had. (edit: I killed it because I thought it was an infiltrator, which is how I found out about the ring - I didn't kill it for the ring and justify my actions because I rationalized it was an infiltrator).

Also, the ring is a fantastic find in act 1. By act 3, it's kind of meh. I'm weighing the value of the ring against what you lose in act 2 for getting it instead of waiting until act 3, but I shouldn't have to. I'll tell you right now, if Dammon is unlinked from it, it dies every time, no hesitation, no remorse. Losing unrelated content from doing that is a trap. Very insidious too because if you don't know what you're missing, you wouldn't know if you didn't look it up. I'm going to view this as an unintended consequence of a bug, rather than a nasty trap purposely set by the developers. I hope I'm right.

[fatcatfan]

Just want to second this, I'm in the same boat. I'm many many hours past the grove and wondering why Dammon isn't at the Last Light. I can't progress a certain quest without him

[MewTressym]

The reason the Ox and Dammon are linked:

In the shadowlands the Ox saves Dammon during the cultist attack. If you kill the Ox prior to this, then the Ox is not there to save Dammon.

This isn't "bad writing" or "bad game design", it's simply the consequence for a choice.

[Wiwra]

Whaat??? I'm in act 3 and I killed the Ox just from curiosity, I though it's not big deal so( I dont play druid nor I even use Halsin at all, so the ring was sold) I didnt loaded in previous save and carred on and now I see that I cannot progress my companion quest? How would I know these 2 are linked together?

[MewTressym]

Originally posted by Wiwra:

Whaat??? I'm in act 3 and I killed the Ox just from curiosity, I though it's not big deal so( I dont play druid nor I even use Halsin at all, so the ring was sold) I didnt loaded in previous save and carred on and now I see that I cannot progress my companion quest? How would I know these 2 are linked together?

One of the possible dialogue option paths in act 1 with the Ox has the Ox stating "I just want to be an Ox now."

If you let the Ox live, you get to see it take a path of redemption and join you to help you as well as other characters. If you kill the Ox in Act 1, you slay someone trying to change for the better despite having done bad things in the past. The only real hint you get to this is the hint that the Ox isn't what it seems, and dialogues hinting that the Ox just wants to be left in peace.

[Zarek]

Originally posted by MewTressym:

The reason the Ox and Dammon are linked:

In the shadowlands the Ox saves Dammon during the cultist attack. If you kill the Ox prior to this, then the Ox is not there to save Dammon.

This isn't "bad writing" or "bad game design", it's simply the consequence for a choice.

I somewhat agree. If you're going to have an agency free choice though, while seeing the butterfly affect accross multiple playthroughs is pretty cool, from a game design standpoint there is a bound of how arbitrary or agency-free decision you should be able to make, and the extremity of the consequence.

You probably should not have one arbitrary decision made in the first 5 hours of the game, be able to absolutely ruin a 100 hour game experience for you with no indicators thats what youve done. And if you dont know the connection, and really want to complete one certain companions story arch and romance that companion, that's exactly how it would feel. Youd never know what youd done to yourself until dozens of hours and googling later.

Of course, I think the complaint there for me isn't dammon dying and missing out on his stuff, its the single point of failure aspect for said companion. Core story resolutions shouldn't be locked behind ONE thing that can be failed without knowledge you are doing anything that impacts it. And that can be failed in a variety of ways too. You run into the same problem if you go to the creche too early.

[Wiwra]

Well I just met Dammon in city Baldurs Gate today(act 3) and upgraded Karlach second time... and I killed that wierd Ox before in Act 1. So I dont think they r linked or maybe some of my doings saved Dammon somehow.

[MewTressym]

Originally posted by Wiwra:

Well I just met Dammon in city Baldurs Gate today(act 3) and upgraded Karlach second time... and I killed that wierd Ox before in Act 1. So I dont think they r linked or maybe some of my doings saved Dammon somehow.

Yeah, the cultists don't kill Dammon in act 2, they capture him and if you free the tieflings at Moonrise he'll appear in act 3.

[Wiwra]

This is wierd.. because I think I didnt helped tieflings...doing shar temple thing kinda locked me out of it.

[dolby]

Originally posted by MewTressym:

The only real hint you get to this is the hint that the Ox isn't what it seems, and dialogues hinting that the Ox just wants to be left in peace.

aka "bad quest design"...

You cant tell any npcs that the ox is acting weird and that his shapeshifted (first thing i tryed lol) is again "bad quest design" the fact that his not next to Dammon in act one and that they don't have interactions of any kind is again "bad quest design" The fact that ox is left behind same as all the items when Tieflings leave is again "bad quest design" the fact that you can't get the ring some other way is again ...... and on and on.....

But not like this is the only quest that could be improved in 1001 ways. The game is full of them.

[Wiwra]

When I met the Ox I though it's shapeshifted someone and I might meet him later on, I woudnt know he is linked to any npc from reasons which were said above.

[dolby]

well, like i said... it was just a "bad quest design - bug" that was apparently fixed in patch 3
form patch notes:
"Ensured Dammon appears at Last Light even if the ox was killed at the Emerald Grove. "

[MewTressym]

Originally posted by dolby:

Originally posted by MewTressym:

The only real hint you get to this is the hint that the Ox isn't what it seems, and dialogues hinting that the Ox just wants to be left in peace.

aka "bad quest design"...

You cant tell any npcs that the ox is acting weird and that his shapeshifted (first thing i tryed lol) is again "bad quest design" the fact that his not next to Dammon in act one and that they don't have interactions of any kind is again "bad quest design" The fact that ox is left behind same as all the items when Tieflings leave is again "bad quest design" the fact that you can't get the ring some other way is again ...... and on and on.....

But not like this is the only quest that could be improved in 1001 ways. The game is full of them.

In Act 1 you have no reason to not think the Ox isn't a druid shapeshifted. It isn't until Act 2 at last light that you get any indication as to what the Ox actually is. The only real clue it may not be a druid is another Ox who jokingly asks if you're really an "Ant, Auroch" etc.

I do agree that some of it doesn't make sense sure, but I agree on some of your points, like the ox being left behind after the tieflings leave, you're 100% right on that point.

I disagree about the ring not being obtained any other way, having rewards tied to choices is good design in my opinion.

Looking at your more recent post I see the patch fix, so, I guess it really was a bug and you were right.