Balance Discussion: Act 3 XP and Level Cap

[Venom Jensen]

Hi, SPOILER WARNING.

We already knew Level 12 was the cap intended for the game and considering the flow of XP on Act 1 and 2, I was sure that Lvl 10 to 12 was going to be a hard cap to get for the mostly dedicated players.

I left Act 1 as Level 5 (Almost 6)
I left Act 2 as Level 9 (Almost 10)

And in both cases I had to do all the zones and quests available.

But Act 3 just starts tossing XP at your party like there is no tomorrow.
I still have pending subquests like entering Cazador's Lair, Killing the two other main antagonists, destroy the Steel Guard Factory, Rescue the Gondians, audience with Mystra, etc. but I am already Lvl 12, I did Lvl 10 to 11 just on Wyrm's Crossing and up to 12 on 1/3 of Lower City.

So, right now the hammer of no more progress falls in and (for me) it's a bit of discouraging to continue doing subquests.

Yes, saw a nice mod that adds progress up to Level 20, but even the modder says that playing honestly you can squeeze up to Lvl 14. (Also, that mod disables achievements)

So, I don't know how different the experience would be if there is two more levels added on next patches.

I understand the idea of having more XP on Act 3 is to help players that rushed to get into the current act level, but I think there is already help for them with the easy difficulty and the 100% buff.

[Solid Snake]

Yeah the level 12 cap seems arbitrary with how much exp you can easily have to reach up to like lvl 15.
It feels like that level cap was arbitrarily and quickly picked after they cut alot of the content.

[manslaughter]

Agreed. I'm in the first half of Act 3 or maybe somewhere in the midlle of it and I already have 10k of excessive XP. A few more levels would be nice. It's not a lot of fun going through last 20 to 50 hours of game without character progression.

[hannibal_pjv]

The original plan was to have 10 levels in the game. When they did increase the level cap to 10, they did increase the XP in act 3 to get people at level 12 before the half way of act3...
You can avoid the problem by doing much less in each act and skip many side quests.

[It Me JD]

Originally posted by hannibal_pjv:

The original plan was to have 10 levels in the game. When they did increase the level cap to 10, they did increase the XP in act 3 to get people at level 12 before the half way of act3...
You can avoid the problem by doing much less in each act and skip many side quests.

You can avoid the problem by playing less of the game... This isn't a good fix.

[hannibal_pjv]

Originally posted by It Me JD:

Originally posted by hannibal_pjv:

The original plan was to have 10 levels in the game. When they did increase the level cap to 10, they did increase the XP in act 3 to get people at level 12 before the half way of act3...
You can avoid the problem by doing much less in each act and skip many side quests.

You can avoid the problem by playing less of the game... This isn't a good fix.

I know... The best option would be to give less XP to players, but then those players who don´t get XP would be under powered in the end..
If I would be DM I would give less XP to certain players and more XP to other players to keep the game balanced... But AI is not good in those desisions.
level 12 is op in this game if you know what you do. Level 12 may be enough if you don´t know what you do. And the game has to work with those players too... Good DM would solve this problem by giving less XP to good players... It is just hard in computer games.

[It Me JD]

Originally posted by hannibal_pjv:

Originally posted by It Me JD:

You can avoid the problem by playing less of the game... This isn't a good fix.

I know... The best option would be to give less XP to players, but then those players who don´t get XP would be under powered in the end..
If I would be DM I would give less XP to certain players and more XP to other players to keep the game balanced... But AI is not good in those desisions.
level 12 is op in this game if you know what you do. Level 12 may be enough if you don´t know what you do. And the game has to work with those players too... Good DM would solve this problem by giving less XP to good players... It is just hard in computer games.

The better solution would be have a game that goes to level 15 so you reward players who do everything. Skipping past quests and not exploring should be punished and you can always program in higher xp rewards for under-leveled players to catch them up if they're far below leveling milestones.

[hannibal_pjv]

Because they are not increasing the Level cap with DLC or any other way… That level 15 option is not an option in here.
They could make definite edition, but level cap is 12… So hopefully they reduce XP or gives us new difficulty level that gives less XP to those who do all.

[deviousity]

Originally posted by Venom Jensen:

Hi, SPOILER WARNING.

We already knew Level 12 was the cap intended for the game and considering the flow of XP on Act 1 and 2, I was sure that Lvl 10 to 12 was going to be a hard cap to get for the mostly dedicated players.

I left Act 1 as Level 5 (Almost 6)
I left Act 2 as Level 9 (Almost 10)

And in both cases I had to do all the zones and quests available.

But Act 3 just starts tossing XP at your party like there is no tomorrow.
I still have pending subquests like entering Cazador's Lair, Killing the two other main antagonists, destroy the Steel Guard Factory, Rescue the Gondians, audience with Mystra, etc. but I am already Lvl 12, I did Lvl 10 to 11 just on Wyrm's Crossing and up to 12 on 1/3 of Lower City.

So, right now the hammer of no more progress falls in and (for me) it's a bit of discouraging to continue doing subquests.

Yes, saw a nice mod that adds progress up to Level 20, but even the modder says that playing honestly you can squeeze up to Lvl 14. (Also, that mod disables achievements)

So, I don't know how different the experience would be if there is two more levels added on next patches.

I understand the idea of having more XP on Act 3 is to help players that rushed to get into the current act level, but I think there is already help for them with the easy difficulty and the 100% buff.

It's probably related to spell levels. Hitting 13 would give access to 7th level spells. Another problem is the fact that spellcasters gain no additional spell slots for reaching level 12. They have the same number as level 11 across the board, all classes.

Specifically, you get 1 level 6 spell slot at level 11, and unlike any other even level where you gain additional slots (at 4 you have 2 level 2 spell slots, at 6 you have 2 level 3 spell slots, at 8 you have 2 level 4 spell slots, at 10 you have 2 level 5 spell slots), 12 is the only even level spellcasters do not go up to 2 spell slots for their highest level spells. Bards who have a lower spell level cap don't gain any slots after level 10. And very weirdly, Arcane Tricksters have 4 level 1 slots and 2 level 2 slots at level 7, 8, and 9, then at 10 gain another level 1 slot, and at 11 gain ANOTHER level 1 slot, giving them 6 to everybody else's 4. 6 level 1 slots and 2 level 2 slots. What's going on there? Is that the same as D&D? I haven't played any 5E.

[hannibal_pjv]

D&D 5e info
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb

BG3 is very near 5e… they did make monks better, did make many actions bonus actions (in 5e drinkin heal potion is action, in BG3 it is bonus action) so there are tweaks. But in genral BG3 is very close 5e.

[deviousity]

Originally posted by hannibal_pjv:

D&D 5e info
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb

BG3 is very near 5e… they did make monks better, did make many actions bonus actions (in 5e drinkin heal potion is action, in BG3 it is bonus action) so there are tweaks. But in genral BG3 is very close 5e.

Apparently you have to pay to read anything on that site. Sorry, I'm not about that life.

I did find a spell progression chart for Wizards and I was shocked... From levels 11 through 20 Wizards only gain 7 spell slots. They go from gaining 1 or more every level to one every other level. From 11 to 18 they only have 1 6th level spell slot. All of the full spell casters have the same progression. Arcane Recovery never recovers 6th level slots or above. Warlocks don't get 6th level spells at all. I guess having worthwhile cantrips is supposed to make up for that. Everything being Concentration and the harsh limits on spell slots makes me never want to play a caster in 5e.

If I run another game in the future I'm making a house rule that you can concentrate on a number of spells equal to 1 or your casting stat modifier, whichever is greater, but each spell past the first gives a -1 penalty to Concentration checks. If you fail a Concentration check by the number of spells you are concentrating on, you lose them all. If you fail by less, pick one to keep. So if you're concentrating on 3 spells and fail the roll by 2, you lose the extra 2, but would have passed the roll to keep 1. If you fail the roll by 1, you still lose both extra spells. There's no middle ground. Risk vs. reward. I might also introduce spells that work with this mechanic. I have a Warlock spell in mind called Thoughtlash. Con save or lose all the spells your concentrating on. Each spell lost causes 2d6 Psychic damage.

Anyway, I'm off topic...

In BG3, my level 12 Rogue is only rolling 5d6 Sneak Attack dice. In the PHB you gain 1d6 every odd level, so at level 11 you should have 6 dice. I don't know if this is intended, or a bug, or an error. They only get 1 attack per turn, I don't see why an extra 1d6 would be so unbalancing it just had to go. Meanwhile Lae'zel is attacking 3 times every turn, double that once per short rest. She has 22 Str, a Githyanki greatsword that does 12-25 damage, and has a ring that does an extra 1d4 if she's concentrating on a spell. I use Expeditious Retreat for this so she can dash around and still get all her attacks. That adds up to 36-75 or 39-87 damage without crits. My Rogue can do 13-43 damage with a Sneak Attack.
That's about half what a Fighter can do. Add 1d6 and omg it's still about half. Has anyone seen this mentioned before?