Justice for Minthara (some spoilers of The Dark Urge)

[The Vaultdweller 13]

I am almost about to finish my second game, in which I have played a character of origin "The Dark Urge" and evil, so I have been able to meet the character of Minthara, and, honestly, I have been surprised.

The negative of the character is, first of all, that he is completely broken. It is noticeable, not only the lack of content (unlike Halsin, who has a very cool quest, Minthara's only quest is to get her out of prison, which is done in 3 minutes), but also that it is half-implemented . It has numerous bugs in the dialogues, on the conversation screen... etc.

The issue is that, beyond that, the character has surprised me a lot. I thought she was just going to be a psycho, and yes, see, she's a drow, but like Viconia in BG1 and 2, she has a lot more depth than she first appears. When you meet her at the beginning of her, she is a character blinded by the Absolute, but when you have her in your party, you discover that she is a very cool Lawful Evil character, with iron ideas, and even a twisted sense of honor. One of the first things she tells you is that she would never have done something like the tiefling massacre if there was no need. And really, I really felt sorry for her in her last dialogue, after defeating Orin the Red, when she tells you that "if you hadn't rescued her, she would be another victim in your crusade and no one would remember her". Sadly true.

It's a shame that most players don't get to meet her because, normally, the player plays a good character. But, for me, Minthara is a much better character than Halsin.

I welcome Halsin overruling Minthara, but the price to pay for recruiting her is truly unfair. Karlach, Wyll, and Halsin just for her, or, if you ignore the entire grove quest chain; the need to give up a lot of content (and possibly romance with Karlach, since tieflings die), just for one character.

I think it would be pretty fair to the player, if there were more options with her, and not just be a psycho/kill her because she's one of her leaders; for example, giving her false directions, to cause her to fail her mission, but having a chance to find her after her.

It's the usual in almost all RPGs (and I've played many). Playing an evil character deprives you of a lot of content because, as a general rule, the evil companions reluctantly agree to join the good one (and then they usually redeem themselves, and blablabla), but the good characters, they go to the death. first of change or they try to kill you as soon as you deviate from the path of light.

I think this is something that larian should take into account, not only for Mintara, but for the set itself. The fact that a player wants to play an evil character should not deprive him of content compared to another player who plays a good character. My game with evil Durge has been half as long as my game with a good character. And yes, it's okay that I've gone faster, but even so the lack of content because most of the characters die, and there are almost no alternatives, it shows a lot.

Special mention to the entire plot of Bhaal with The Dark Urge, and its resolution. That is an example of how to create a conflict without affecting the player in terms of content. Although the perfect thing would be that, although Mincs and Jaheira attack you (logical), there would be some evil partner to counteract (SAREVOK!)

Finally, I didn't do it in my game, but my idea was to always infiltrate the Sect of the absolute, you know, go along with Ketheric and all the stuff, but even then, the gray characters like shadowheart, would abandon you . And yes, it's cool for role-playing, but the thing is, giving up all storylines and quests for:

wyll
Karlach
shadowheart
Halsin

And all the minor NPCs you kill along the way.

Just for a bit of flavor and roleplay, well, it's simply not worth it. And it hurts that it is so, because the game has plenty of ingredients to not leave the player in that position.

[Nikolyn]

I believe it's been confirmed that there is a bug with her post-recruitment stuff because apparently she's supposed to have a romance arc or something. I agree though. She's a character with a lot of potential to be very interesting, as is the infiltration stuff generally, but the trade off you have to make is overly punishing. It needs more fleshing out or at least a moderate option.

[TheProphet]

Agree bruh , she has very few content in act 2 and 3

[The Vaultdweller 13]

Originally posted by Nikolyn:

I believe it's been confirmed that there is a bug with her post-recruitment stuff because apparently she's supposed to have a romance arc or something. I agree though. She's a character with a lot of potential to be very interesting, as is the infiltration stuff generally, but the trade off you have to make is overly punishing. It needs more fleshing out or at least a moderate option.

I confirm that it is completely bugged. I started the romance with her, and in the first scene the thing remained. I could never mention it to him again.

But hey, the romances are bugged (and poorly narrated) in general, not just Minthara's. Minthara's problem is the rest. You sacrifice half the content of the game for a half-implemented character xD.

That said, carrying an evil character currently does not compensate. Not even like The Dark Urge, which, despite having a very well written plot, will find you having to run out of companions and give up a lot of content.

[Omega]

I agree, I wanted to see the depth of the characters and honestly I thought Minthara was just a crazed killer but after seeing what she says after you rescue her I got really excited. I'm really hoping she's bugged so that I can enjoy more gameplay and dialogue with her. She doesn't seem so one dimensional after that conversation.

Here's hoping for a minthara update soon!

[Dreepa]

Had the same feeling.
Especially sincce she shows regret (kind of) for killing the grove.

I think that a player character that slaughters the grove and side with goblins has no real motivation to then be "all kind" to Minthara.
That is why a "semi good/neutral" option would be really fitting.

A character that does not kill the grove (but still is kind of neutral/evil) should still be able to recruit her.
Slaughtering the entire grove and siding with goblins is something only a really evil character would do. Much more evil than (freed from absolute influence) Minthara herself.

[ode2dave]

I tried several different ways to recruit Minthara as my dark urge wanted a redemption with her. After several tries of not going thru with raiding the druids - I just went and did it because its the only sure fire way I know of to reach her. So far so good. But then at the end of Act 2 she bluntly asks why I killed the tieflings -- the responses were so terrible, or why the F does this question even come up? I had to put that playthru on hold, the OP is right, we give up far to much just to get one companion. After talking Yugir into killing his crew and himself - there should be a better way to get Minthara. So here's hoping Larian will fix this.

[The Vaultdweller 13]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

Especially sincce she shows regret (kind of) for killing the grove.

This is one of the things about Minthara's current resolution that bothers me the most, if you want to have it in your group, it's not only that you lose a lot of content, it's that it's not even consistent at a playable level, because first of all, even she sees you as an irrational sadist.

This goes beyond content for a "chaotic evil" campaign, it's that there is really a lack of content to be able to play a campaign while being neutral.

I'm noticing it in the current campaign I'm playing with Lae'zel, I would like to ignore the grove and go directly to the creche, because it is the most consistent with the character. However, if I do that, I'll lose all the tieflings and a ton of quests and content. Placing the player in that position is a design problem.

This doesn't get any better if you decide to play as chaotic evil, because helping the goblins is going to add absolutely nothing to your campaign. Goblins do not exist again after the party in Act 1.

And well, apart from everything that has already been said in the thread, currently the cast of companions is, to say the least, strange. Lack, both quantity and diversity. Both about classes (yes, I know that you can reset in Withers, but I like that their builds are thematic, not minmax), and about race, motivations, conflicts and alignment.

[Telaka]

I Like this thread, its indeed highlights the problem with evil playthroughts, especially since some devs in larian kinda encourge players to play "evil" but the content isn't there if you go that route.

The loss of companion is indeed a problem over the choice in act 1, that maybe wouldn't be a problem if we got for example Minthara + another evil companion(like Nere or Thrinn) or someone trully neutral companion as replacement.

My ideal fix for this would be like : Minthara , Nere(bard?) and 1-2 some new evil or neutral companion that would be only be recruitable IF you go killing tiefling and siding with absolute, no other way.

[mcc27eng]

I think an interesting solution to the companion loss would be to make Wyll corruptible. If you let him kill Karlach and encourage more moral ambiguity, then you should be able to culminate his quest line into a complete fall from grace. He's already sold his soul, it seems uncompelling that he's completely inflexible otherwise. Find a way to sell him the story that the tiefling refugees are actually a threat to Baldur's Gate and regretfully need to be killed. Then later he can discover that you were either just being evil for no real reason and descend into self-loathing or embrace the fact that he was so easy for you and Mizora to manipulate because he actually is evil, deep down.

[The Vaultdweller 13]

Originally posted by Telaka:

My ideal fix for this would be like : Minthara , Nere(bard?) and 1-2 some new evil or neutral companion that would be only be recruitable IF you go killing tiefling and siding with absolute, no other way.

Originally posted by mcc27eng:

I think an interesting solution to the companion loss would be to make Wyll corruptible.

Good solutions that I have also thought of and commented on in other threads. But apart from that, I think the game should simply have a greater range of companions diverse enough to be able to face any type of game, good, neutral or evil. In general, I think there should be more content for any campaign other than "lawful good."

For me, hirelings are not a solution, I don't want companions for their contribution to the party, I want them for their narrative content.

[Voldski]

Not just companions you lose for taking her, its also ability to get infernal iron crafting since Dammon would be dead and his item stocks in baldur's gate, feel its royally screwing players over just for wanting her in the party.

[The Vaultdweller 13]

Originally posted by Voldski:

Not just companions you lose for taking her, its also ability to get infernal iron crafting since Dammon would be dead and his item stocks in baldur's gate, feel its royally screwing players over just for wanting her in the party.

Yeah, not to mention all the quests (and rewards) the tieflings give in act 2.

From a gameplay point of view, looting the grove only gives you Minthara, while killing her gives you three companions, quests, reactivity in later acts...

It's completely unfair.

[Voldski]

I mean if you could done something in story to allow tiefling to leave so it was only druids left when they attacked, you'd maybe end only having to lose Halsin it would been manageable trade of. Then still have goblin victory party but maybe slight more disappointed Minthara but still appreciative of the victory of getting the grove taken. Then maybe instead of saying you must go to moonrise tower she could ask you to pursue to escaped tiefling not knowing you actually helped them escape or something.

And you could sorta play both angles in act 2, since she at this point already been put under scrutiny for her failure and then rescue her.

[The Vaultdweller 13]

Originally posted by Voldski:

I mean if you could done something in story to allow tiefling to leave so it was only druids left when they attacked, you'd maybe end only having to lose Halsin it would been manageable trade of. Then still have goblin victory party but maybe slight more disappointed Minthara but still appreciative of the victory of getting the grove taken. Then maybe instead of saying you must go to moonrise tower she could ask you to pursue to escaped tiefling not knowing you actually helped them escape or something.

And you could sorta play both angles in act 2, since she at this point already been put under scrutiny for her failure and then rescue her.

Completely agree, I see perfectly that, even on a neutral path, Halsin and Minthara are mutually exclusive (also, Halsin seems like a pitiful character to me, hahaha), the problem is that the evil and neutral paths are lacking in content.

The game is a 10/10 for an archetypal campaign (except the final stretch), but if you are looking to break the mold, you realize that as soon as you get to act 2, there is a very big lack of content.

Anyway, knowing Larian I'm almost sure they'll add it.

[Sister of Silence]

Originally posted by The Vaultdweller 13:

Originally posted by Voldski:

I mean if you could done something in story to allow tiefling to leave so it was only druids left when they attacked, you'd maybe end only having to lose Halsin it would been manageable trade of. Then still have goblin victory party but maybe slight more disappointed Minthara but still appreciative of the victory of getting the grove taken. Then maybe instead of saying you must go to moonrise tower she could ask you to pursue to escaped tiefling not knowing you actually helped them escape or something.

And you could sorta play both angles in act 2, since she at this point already been put under scrutiny for her failure and then rescue her.

Completely agree, I see perfectly that, even on a neutral path, Halsin and Minthara are mutually exclusive (also, Halsin seems like a pitiful character to me, hahaha), the problem is that the evil and neutral paths are lacking in content.

The game is a 10/10 for an archetypal campaign (except the final stretch), but if you are looking to break the mold, you realize that as soon as you get to act 2, there is a very big lack of content.

Anyway, knowing Larian I'm almost sure they'll add it.

Unfortunately I'm almost sure they won't. I don't think they enjoy playing evil characters aside from the cartoonishly evil murder hobo for the lulz.