Modding Tools for Aspiring Fools: BG3 Story Wars Concluded

[Beta Ray Shill]

“Many of the elements that define cinema as I know it are there in Marvel pictures. What’s not there is revelation, mystery or genuine emotional danger. Nothing is at risk[…] They are not easy to make. There are a lot of very talented people doing good work, and a lot of young people really, really enjoy them. But I do think it’s more of an extension of the amusement park.”

-- Martin Scorsese

I’m just going to say something completely mad here – bear with me – but I think Martin Scorsese knows how to tell a good story in a visual art form. Yeah, I know – I haven’t even started drinking yet, and here we are with the wild-talk.

I’m also going to say he’s summed up the problem with big budget art of all species, whether it’s film or TV or games: they are expensive rollercoasters, technically well-crafted, that seek to thrill you into a stupor when they begin. And leave you curiously unsatisfied when they end.

Scorsese is talking about Marvel, but he might as well be talking about BG3. It’s designed for ‘the masses’ – it takes no risks, it follows tried and tested formulas (begin loud and big, keep ‘em distracted). And it’s a difficult beast to make. It does indeed have a lot of talent thrown at it. But it inevitably becomes the burden of the visual artists to throw some lipstick on the plot pig.

That Scorsese says ‘young people’ love this formula can seem a patronising generalisation, but he’s not wrong there either IMO. Age changes a person’s tastes, and I too just wanted quick thrills when I was ‘young’. As you grow older, the brain becomes ever more efficient at recognising repetition – what’s novel to the young is old hat to the old.

As Scorsese notes: “[Marvel films] are sequels in name but they are remakes in spirit[…] That’s the nature of modern film franchises: market-researched, audience-tested, vetted, modified, revetted and remodified until they’re ready for consumption.”

I’ve been reading BG3 forums again (yeah, I need help…): but we’ve yet another interesting drama unfolding about BG3 narrative, with two very distinct sides to the war.
One side, who seems the majority in this thread, wants a Scorsese movie. They want a BG2, which, while not a Scorsese in quality, was definitely closer than BG3. They want the slow-burn beginning. They want drama and characterisation.

The other side, which seems only 3-4 voices to me, want a Marvel film. They want big bang plot, and probably – I’m only guessing here – playersexual. And if those two are there, woe betide those who feel that’s just a little too vanilla ice-cream for their tastes.
I want a Scorsese story in a video game. I hate, with a passion, the Marvel plot of current BG3.

But guess what? I’m not saying take it away. I’m saying keep it: have your Marvel plot. It’s the wisest move by Larian, because Hollywood has already proven it’s the surest, safest, tamest way to ensure a company doesn’t go bankrupt.

I don’t believe Larian should take risks with their narrative. They’ve employed too many people at this point: there’s no turning back from what they’ve become, which is a Hollywood blockbuster studio in game format.

At least they’re sticking with the slightly unpopular turn-based combat. That and the often very impressive visual art effort are what will make this game remarkable, and it will be remarkable. It will be the best video game junk food players will consume for many years.

But it’ll still be narrative junk food. And that’s ok with me. I’m a health freak during the week – but come the weekend and it’s beer o’clock Fri-Sun, with a proper arteriosclerosis-bomb of a burger after the sesh in the pub. Love it.

Larian cannot, and should not, create a Scorsese – and they cannot, and should not, create a BG2. Both have too much originality to remind the masses of a Marvel film.

I can blank out the current BG3 plot drivel no problem and still enjoy the art and gameplay. And if we get modding tools that easily allow others to create riskier, less ‘epic’ narratives, Larian will become the king of modern RPGs. They will have taken the safe road, sure, but they’ll still sow the seeds of potentially greater things.

It’s essential, though – and I must stress this – that they provide their fans with these tools. Those of us who want to tell and experience riskier, more experimental narratives are willing to back your big bloated Marvel video game and not moan and hiss about it. That’s clear from the thread I mentioned: those on my side of the fence clearly have no problem with Larian’s direction. Unpleasantly, those on the other side do sound like entitled little children who will not give up until the ‘others’ give in and call the Marvel plot stance the king.

The Marvel plot is here to stay, so stop fretting that Larian will change that. But maybe grow up and let others say they think it’s tripe. Their opinions at least have some basis in sensory appreciation of the art form.

Which is the critical thing here. I read the comments of the opposing side, and, chillingly, I read no emotion in the words. BG2 had mindflayers and so does BG3, therefore they are the same. BG3 has a fishing village, therefore it does have normal villages.

And so on.

One of my tasks in dev-land is coding automation. You can programme the thing to interact with any interface like a human, on every level, and you can ‘ask it’ what it found, after each and every interaction. ‘I selected that and then swiped this, then I added XYZ to this and the DOM now has the following elements within it. Additionally, the following spied methods within the given component were called with the following values.’ And the robot lists them out for me. ‘The DOM has AB and C – and because it has C, you are wrong’.

And the robot is correct, even though I created it. I was wrong. Human error. It’s why I made the automaton. But if I asked it what does it think of C, what would it tell me?
Nothing. Because it has no senses and therefore has no sophisticated, intelligent opinion. It sees only the logical error, and a trivial one at that.

My point is that real art is evaluated primarily with the senses: that which makes life worth living. And that which is infinitely more complex than that tiny robotic part of the brain that can say because one film has a dog in it and the other film has a dog in it then they must be the same.

That’s what my little pet robot above would say. But it’s also, apparently, what humans will say, without shame, when they write BG3 has illithids and BG2 has illithids and are therefore the same.

There’s a different sensory experience with BG2. From the art to the writing to the villians that really pop off the screen. Of course in BG3 we’ve still to be introduced to a villain in any form other than a concept. They don’t talk to us or taunt us like Irenicus – they don’t stalk us like Bodhi. They just exist as generic words like ‘The Absolute’.

I did lately check in to BG3 reddit to see if anyone there was actually offering criticisms of the game, instead of just posting Astarion art or bugs or ‘what should I do here dudes?’ posts.

Nothing had changed, except for one particular thread about ‘pressure on poor Larian’.
Steam forums take the biggest hit here for some reason. ‘Dumb’. ‘Stupid’. ‘Nerds’. ‘Cesspool’. ‘Idiots.’ ‘Bullies’. Etc etc.

You can call anything or anyone stupid on BG3 reddit, unless you call a Larian game mechanic stupid. Then you’re barred.

I’ve been there. One of the things I dissed was the illithid ship, how it wasn’t BG2 weird enough. How the glowing floor thing looked tacky. How it wasn’t dark enough.

They changed all of those things in BG3 patch 6, all for the better – including the glowing floor thing.

I’m not here to gloat. I wanted the glowing floor thing gone, but Larian invested in it and instead made it less flashy – more uniquely alien. I still don’t like it, but the point is that they listened to the criticism but still went about it their own way. There seems to be this irrational fear that they’ll ‘cave’ and give in to popular criticism. The only thing they’ll give in to is popular Marvel narrative trends, don’t worry.

We critique not to change the game into our vision, but to inspire this company to push themselves a little harder – in their own way. Which is what they’ve done with criticism to date.

And what if I were to get my dream mod tools? What story would I write?

Well, I like art that imitates life. Just look how much brilliant drama there is on the internet. Look at reddit, with its creepy-ass ‘cutesy’ reddit avatars. Innocent, harmless looking things – then the comments beside them are pure distilled loathing for mankind. Sorry, I mean steam forums.

It reminds me of the time Notch, creator of minecraft, tweeted that ‘minecraft was dead’ after he witnessed a cynical sonic the hedgehog cash-in on the minecraft product.
Immediately, an online army of ‘cutesy’ animalistic avatars descended upon Notch’s tweet like locusts. The twitter-critter faces of these avatars were smiling, grinning animals of various colours of the rainbow – like characters from a kid’s cartoon show.

Their words were absolute loathing.

And whatever this is:

‘Hehe – here’s the number of minecraft users now’.

Stats used to justify that all is ‘well’.

‘Hehe – you’ve just been ratio’d’.

Ratio’d. No, it doesn’t mean they understood Notch’s comment that minecraft has turned into a mindless sellout – it means someone got more upvotes on their hatred for Notch than Notch got for his hatred for what became of his own creation.

I’d like to create a mod of BG3 that features a quest where an army of grinning rainbow coloured my-little-pony type creatures has gathered to hug, kiss and jerk each other off. ‘Hehe’ and ‘omg so cute’ are their main phrases. Correction, they are their only phrases.

A stranger enters the scene and sees the ‘cute’ thing they refer to and says, ‘Jaysus, that looks proper f**ked up – what’s that lads?’

The critters go silent. Some have clenched their fists and are visibly shaking, noiselessly. Then their heads turn – but only their heads – towards the stranger. A chorus of wrist blades can be heard slashing out from their flesh.

Then some kind of penguin wackadoodle freak with a sphere for a body comes bounding out towards the stranger, before promptly spewing acid all over the poor chap. The penguin turns, unblinking, and bounces back to the rainbow critters.

Their heads return to their previous positons and ‘haha, so cute’ can be heard again among hugs and giggles.

In the background, the stranger’s screams ring out across the room, for the critters are against instant death.

Well?

I think it would make a great story. Our online ‘communities’ are the true sources of modern narrative inspiration: all the good stuff is there – the drama, the conflict, the wars and the truces.

Yeah, I believe an analogy of our times would make a better story than ‘guess who’s the Absolute’.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

I got bored about 1/2 through your rant. At least this time you only mentioned 'playersexuality' once.

I tend to judge works of art by their peers. I love the MCU, but not because it's the most original story telling, but precisely because it's a spectacle of modern cinema. Because it contains a long term continuity unmatched by any other franchise or series. Because I got invested in a couple characters a decade ago, and their stories are still being told today. That's it. I also enjoy many other forms of art at the same time. I Scorcese is a bit arrogant in his assessment of the MCU, and art in general. He's a bit of a poseur.

When it comes to BG3, I play it (mostly) for one reason, and one reason only: immersion within the environment and settings that have been created. I care for a lot of the little details, such as being able to turn candles and torches on and off, being able to pick the lock of a door, but also to bash that same door down or find a key to unlock it. I play it for all the useless plates and silverware found on the old, dusty tables. In other words, I'm a huge fan of systemic, open world game design.

Truth is, I'm luke-warm on the story. It's mildly interesting, but then that's not why I'm here in the first place. There are certain characters I find more entertaining than others (Auntie Ethel, Lump the Gourmand, Kagha the Archdruid) and certain settings I like more than others (the swamp, the low ground by the Defiled Sanctum, the Arcane Tower, Grymforge, Spider Caverns), but I follow the story only so that it will lead me to the next scene for me to explore. In other words, if BG3 didn't even have a plotline, if it was just an open exploration game where I could discover all the lore (the books to read, the characters like withers to talk to) and the interesting bits and just keep going through it at my own pace, I'd also be fine with that.

I'm a big fan of the Ultima series of crpg's. I didn't play BG or BG2, but I did play a bit of NWN when it first came out. I consider Ultima to be the greatest crpg series of all time until now (BG3). And for mainly the same reasons I love BG3.

So, you see, we're all here for different reasons - the reason you may not like BG3 (story) might not be as important to someone else (like me, who really just wants hyper immersive environments and enough 'interesting bits' to keep me exploring further).

That said, it's also early access and all of this stuff is undergoing polish. From the little I played Divinity: Original Sin (I couldn't stand the combat in that game), their storytelling and writing were Larian's strongest points. What you are seeing right now is unpolished.

And I have seen the improvements they've made to dialog and story beats since the EA launched. Every part of BG3 gets better with time, so my advice to you would be to sit back and wait, see what comes out the other end.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

I got bored about 1/2 through your rant. At least this time you only mentioned 'playersexuality' once.

I tend to judge works of art by their peers. I love the MCU, but not because it's the most original story telling, but precisely because it's a spectacle of modern cinema

Well, big names like Scorsese disagree - and I agree with them: the 'spectacle' is mere visual wank, it has no substance.

And I beat you to it: I got bored by your 2nd paragraph. You have nothing to say expect 'I love MCU': there's no follow up, no depth. This is the whole point of my post, and also what Scorsese mentioned - I guess he must bore you too. But hey, we both make good cash being bores, so I'm in good company.

I don't care who you find interesting. You have no philosophy on why you like them, you just state you like them. How is that interesting to read?

Snooze fest.

BG3's story will be tripe, no question. Everyone is saying it. Or maybe you should read outside of steam a bit.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Well, big names like Scorsese disagree - and I agree with them: the 'spectacle' is mere visual wank, it has no substance.

You completely missed the context.

I tend to judge works of art by their peers.

Let me break this down for you. When you go to see an action movie, you don't judge it by how great of a comedy it is. When you watch a drama, you don't compare it to an anime.

You compare like things to like. You may not like a certain genre, and that's fine. If we're judging genre's themselves, then that's an entirely different subject.

For what they are (superhero action flick blockbusters), Marvel movies are great. They generally do their job, and do it better, than other titles in the same genre. No other superhero movie franchise has ever created a decade+ of continuity using the same actors and characters. They tended to be constant reboots telling origin stories, until the MCU came along.

Perhaps you (and Scorcese) don't like superhero action movies. That's fine. But what isn't, and what Scorcese is doing, is comparing apples to oranges. You don't rate a piece of art by comparing it to something from a completely different genre. I wouldn't judge a painting by how well it stood up to a statue, nor would I judge Marvel movies by how much of an emotional drama they are. Scorcese is a pretentious poseur. Action movies are action movies, and superhero movies are superhero movies. Judge them by their peers. And, relative to all the other superhero action movies I've seen, the MCU is by far the best. By far. And it's absolutely massive fanbase proves that.

No one has to like a genre - but if you're going to grade something, use the proper criteria.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Scorcese is a pretentious poseur.

You almost had an argument going, but you definitely dropped the ball there. Like the dude above, if you have to resort to 'name-calling', you're losing.

Scorcese is considered a genius by many people with more influence than you or I - if you want to call him a 'poseur' and actually convince people, then you'll need to reference his material and explain in concrete terms where he's being a 'poseur'.

He never said, and I never said, Marvel was rubbish. He has clearly stated that he respects the technical effort that went into them. I really couldn't lower my IQ enough, however, to not see his point about Marvel films being 'amusement parks' makes sense.

That's what they are. And, like he said, they repeat the formula over and over.

That's the only point that's being made here.

Nobody is saying they have to be Shakespear. I never said that and nor did Scorcese. He's just calling them out as the bumblegum that they are.

That's all.

Personally, I can't engage with bubblegum entertainment - it just makes me fall asleep. Again, that's all that's being said.

And in fact, the entire original post has endorsed this 'bubblegum': had you read it, you'd know I said BG3 should be bubblegum. It should be Marvel. It's the easiest way to make cash.

What I want is modding tools so I can write my own stories and create my own games with the assets. It's a common feature in these games.

Do I think I'll create a masterpiece?

I couldn't care less - I just want to create something for the craic. If people enjoy it, great. I don't need to make money out of it.

There are people that want less showy narratives than what's on display with Marvel and BG3. That's the only thing stated here in this topic.

Go enjoy your Marvel-esque BG3 - I don't want to deprive you of it.

But guess what, we don't all have the same tastes. I can never enjoy it. And many others, if you read around, can't enjoy it either: hence, modding tools. Easy win for all.