Enemy Saves vs. Magic Is Too High

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

I decided to build an Enchantment/Illusionist party using Shadowheart and Astarion (Arcane Trickster) just to see how a CC group will do in general.

What I found was that many spells just don't hit often enough, and this is because most enemies have too good saving throws. Sleep is ok at first, but it doesn't scale at all, and beyond the goblin encampments becomes almost worthless.

My party is level 4 now, almost fully geared, and I have yet to use Crown of Madness even once because the chances of hitting with it are too low. It's not worth potentially burning a level 2 spell slot for nothing.

Hold Person seems to be the best Enchantment spell to use so far.

Most of my damage is coming from Astarion's Sneak Attacks, and he nearly solo's every encounter (with Blessing of the Trickster from Shadowheart). My Sorc MC is only there to provide concentration on Dancing Lights (to give Astarion advantage) or occasionally land a Hold Person, and that's about it.

I think monster saving throws need to be looked at, and I think the Enchantment and Illusion schools specifically need some love.

[TheBlueFox]

Hold person and crown of madness have the same save dont they? Both wisdom?

I crown of madnessed the flind gnoll and he wrecked 2 dudes for me. Was cool

[seandeven]

The only thing that helps when casting an enchantment spell is a well placed bane to get the spells off. It gets worse for the enchantment school, there are no 3rd level spells.
The 6th level wizard abilities, when they come online, will make or break the wizard schools.

Illusion spells are good 'nuff I guess

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by seandeven:

The only thing that helps when casting an enchantment spell is a well placed bane to get the spells off. It gets worse for the enchantment school, there are no 3rd level spells.
The 6th level wizard abilities, when they come online, will make or break the wizard schools.

Illusion spells are good 'nuff I guess

Yeah, this is a problem with all save based spells (see Poison Spray) in D&D. Unfortunately, the end result will be that these spells just see very little use. The game favors attack rolls over saves.

[Aldain]

Well there's a big difference between "Save to negate" and "Saves deal half damage", Fireball is a save based spell but even when halved it can still trash weak mobs for example.

The only real "problem" save I feel stands out in 5e is Con saves, which get progressively worse the higher the enemy threat levels get because Con almost uniformly increases as you run into more threatening enemies.

But there's always a chance of things being overtuned at certain points, I don't have enough DnD knowledge to say one way or another if that's the case in BG3 though.

[id795078477]

Yep. To be fair, in this case it seems to be a conscious choice of a DM (aka Larian) to have monsters with way higher saves. But in general - that's why I could never accept 5e's approach to spellcasting. In my opinion, a system where your chance to hit decreases as you progress through power levels is fundamentally flawed.

3.5e allowed for tweaks to compensate for the increase of the saving throws on enemies. Those were spell school specializations, DC feats, DC scale with the (spell) level and so on. But in 5e to my knowledge you just can't raise your DC no matter what. You get what you get from the ability and that's largely it. I was unable to find any feats that allow for the DC increase.

Granted, there are spells to decrease enemy saves, those aren't always available depending on the party and besides, locking spellcasting to some specific gimmicks ("use magic missile because everything else is garbage", "use bless / bane because without that you're gimped") can rarely be a good idea.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Dellecross:

Yep. To be fair, in this case it seems to be a conscious choice of a DM (aka Larian) to have monsters with way higher saves. But in general - that's why I could never accept 5e's approach to spellcasting. In my opinion, a system where your chance to hit decreases as you progress through power levels is fundamentally flawed.

3.5e allowed for tweaks to compensate for the increase of the saving throws on enemies. Those were spell school specializations, DC feats, DC scale with the (spell) level and so on. But in 5e to my knowledge you just can't raise your DC no matter what. You get what you get from the ability and that's largely it. I was unable to find any feats that allow for the DC increase.

Granted, there are spells to decrease enemy saves, those aren't always available depending on the party and besides, locking spellcasting to some specific gimmicks ("use magic missile because everything else is garbage", "use bless / bane because without that you're gimped") can rarely be a good idea.

The only means I know of to currently decrease saving throw chances is Bane (and rat familiar).

[TheBlueFox]

The saving throw issue isn't actually WORSE as levels get stronger, It's actually better...

This is because of "PROFICIENCY" Even enemies have proficiency. So, they can be proficient in certain Saving throws.

Lets take a look at A bugbear, a CR1 creature.
A bugbear's saves are pretty poor. these are just it's saving throws
STR: +2
DEX: +2
CON: +1
INT: -1
WIS: 0
CHA: -1


Now, lets take a look at a BEHOLDER, a CR 14 level creature
STR: +0
DEX: +2
CON: +4
INT: +8
WIS: +7
CHA: +8


Holy crap, 8 and 7!? That's massive!

But wait... it's strength, dex, and con saves are terrible... And this is at CR14. A PLAYER LEVEL 11 character will have probably DC 16 or so

So smash that beholder with Dexterity saving spells, like fireballs, or even stuff like poisons and constitution saves!


ENEMIES aren't proficient in all of their saves, you need the knowledge to know which ones to use. And with that, you'll be able to debilitate and demolish them

[TheBlueFox]

Lets just put up another example of something we'll probably actually fight, a Cambion.

A cambion's saves are:
Str +7
Dex +4
Con +6
lnt +5
Wis +1
Cha +6

Those are damn good for a CR5 creature, he's gonna be tough to... oh wait... what's that there? Wisdom save of +1? Okay... Hypnotic pattern/Hold Monster hell even Command will work on this guy.

Not ever save for every monster increases as levels get higher. The difference between their GOOD save and their BAD save actually widens

[RealDealBreaker]

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

The saving throw issue isn't actually WORSE as levels get stronger, It's actually better...

This is because of "PROFICIENCY" Even enemies have proficiency. So, they can be proficient in certain Saving throws.

Lets take a look at A bugbear, a CR1 creature.
A bugbear's saves are pretty poor. these are just it's saving throws
STR: +2
DEX: +2
CON: +1
INT: -1
WIS: 0
CHA: -1


Now, lets take a look at a BEHOLDER, a CR 14 level creature
STR: +0
DEX: +2
CON: +4
INT: +8
WIS: +7
CHA: +8


Holy crap, 8 and 7!? That's massive!

But wait... it's strength, dex, and con saves are terrible... And this is at CR14. A PLAYER LEVEL 11 character will have probably DC 16 or so

So smash that beholder with Dexterity saving spells, like fireballs, or even stuff like poisons and constitution saves!


ENEMIES aren't proficient in all of their saves, you need the knowledge to know which ones to use. And with that, you'll be able to debilitate and demolish them

exactly, just target the enemy's weakness rather than crashing up against it's strengths.

Another even higher CR example is a ancient red dragon (CR30). It has +10 Str, +7 Dex, + 16 Con, +4 Int, +9 Wis, and +13 Cha. But it only has a 22 AC. So generally you will not be having much luck stunning or charming an ancient red dragon, but they aren't terribly hard to hit and they will have a hard time with Dex saves (without any magic items to increase it a level 17+ character will usually have a +11 to hit with their main stat and their save DC will tend to be DC19). Tactics matter.

[Amix]

Red Dragon is a legendary enemy. Has Blindsight, frightful presence & more importantly legendary resistance which means it can choose to succeed a failed saving throw.
22 AC is just too much. It really depends on player level. Beholders are powerful too.

Discussion for future when player is level 10 or beyond.

Now, let us discuss what Pandarius is trying.

18 ability score in Wisdom/Charisma means your spell DC is 14 at level 4.

Dice roll determines major outcome then their proficiency & ability bonus will be added too.
If they roll 15 on dice saving throw, do you want them to fail? What are you really suggesting here?
I know you want an easy game with bad changes.

Why only tabletop players have many issues with D&D video games?
Now this is right question.

[TheBlueFox]

Amix, the issue is that you have to use up an ACTION (Essentially your turn) And a RESOURCE (your spell slots) To ATTEMPT to use a spell on an enemy.

If this results in a failure over 50% of the time, it can be disheartening to have your powers nullified completely.

However, at the low levels, when the difference between a good save and a bad save is like... 1 or 2, you'll probably miss a good deal, maybe 40% or so. But in higher levels, you'll land those spells more often, provided you target a vulnerability.

But your last point is incredibly stupid...

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

The point comes down to this: why take a spell at all if your chances at successfully using it are so abysmal that it fails more than half the time?

This seems to affect Enchantment and Illusion more than other schools of magic. Particularly Enchantment.

[Amix]

My last point is stupid? I hope you are joking.
I am fine with however Larian creates the game. Same is true for many people who started this game after Divinity OS 2 as you do not see them everyday creating multiple posts full of non sense.

See, the problem with tabletop players is that they create posts everyday & have multiple issues with developer's vision.

If an artist creates art for specific group of people what about others? I hope this answers whatever difficulty you had understanding.
But that is not the point of discussion.

It is D&D, as you progress further, better options are available for you. If the OP is asking for such mastery at low levels then it is wrong. Is not that the same person who wanted true D&D tabletop experience?
Since only tabletop players wanted high ground advantage removed they must not cry about saving throws.

Note: Ranged spells miss frequently even from high ground (+2) unless my character is stealthy.

[dolby]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

The point comes down to this: why take a spell at all if your chances at successfully using it are so abysmal that it fails more than half the time?

This seems to affect Enchantment and Illusion more than other schools of magic. Particularly Enchantment.

cos the effect is worth it ?? Knowing Larian adaptation so far you will get more ways to lower saves you already have a few like, daze works great for wisdom saves +bane.
The thing i don't like is how 5e bane needs a save and that is unbalance vs bless...
It should just give +1d4 to spell DC and armor but for some reason it was made backwards compared to bless. i guess to make it abit harder to stack that armor. But in reality people will just load save if boss doesn't get hit with bane and try again.

Larian will make items that increase DCs they are making OP items anyway to say the least. i mean it's rediculess how easy the game is now... i have 90%+hit chance all the time with ac attacks. ANd sorcerer heightened l mmm yeah or daze hah.

The cookie cutter setup will be bard + sorcerer druid/cleric + whatever. You can swap that sorcerer with a wizard worth playing - Divination subcluss if they implement it in good way.
With this kind of team you will be able to lower any ac/save to the ground...and lol at how easy the game is...

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by dolby:

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

The point comes down to this: why take a spell at all if your chances at successfully using it are so abysmal that it fails more than half the time?

This seems to affect Enchantment and Illusion more than other schools of magic. Particularly Enchantment.

cos the effect is worth it ??

Only if it works. If it doesn't work, it's worthless and a wasted spell slot.