Druid seems... Overpowered

[Whiskey]

Meh. I like this game but when the Lead Design guy from WotC says he is OK breaking the rules for one class, it just kind aggravates me. No one is looking for another "roll my face on keyboard" easy game, am I right?

[Gaius]

Escrito originalmente por Pumis:

Escrito originalmente por lejes:

It is not about their damage potencial, but their imense replenishable HP pool. The druid can enter combat as himself until low on health, shift into a bear (as a bonus action) for many new hp and then shift again into an auroc (or whatever has many HP).
I know there is something similar on tabletop (yeah, druid of the moon), but the main problem here is the use of the power as a bonus action, and not an action as per RAW.
That's yet another homemade rule that makes no sense and that further breaks 5E balance.

It doesn't work like that. The druid's real body doesn't heal by going to different form. The forms just have their own HP. Basically it goes like this.
Druid with 3hp goes to bear form. He gains the X amount of HP that bear gives. If he reverts back he will be back to 3hp. If HP of the bear form goes to the 0 then druid will take any excess damage to this leftover 3hp.
Barbarians have more HP than druid with their forms when you take into account resistance. Aka effective HP is far higher.

"but the main problem here is the use of the power as a bonus action, and not an action as per RAW"
Moon druids can shift forms on bonus action RAW.

I think his issue (and this kinda makes sense) is - a druid with infinite shapeshifting could basically use a diferent HP bar per turn even without losing a single attack. In reality, not infinite, but the number of shapeshifting forms available in the game.

Well, in the end of the day, unless druids have many forms with high HP, it doesn't matter that much. If they DO, tough, might be an issue. In the end of the day, this is a tem based PvE game, so balance is not THAT essential unless you feel forced into a single class and subclass because it's way too good.

[Hobocop]

Escrito originalmente por Pumis:

Escrito originalmente por lejes:

It is not about their damage potencial, but their imense replenishable HP pool. The druid can enter combat as himself until low on health, shift into a bear (as a bonus action) for many new hp and then shift again into an auroc (or whatever has many HP).
I know there is something similar on tabletop (yeah, druid of the moon), but the main problem here is the use of the power as a bonus action, and not an action as per RAW.
That's yet another homemade rule that makes no sense and that further breaks 5E balance.

It doesn't work like that. The druid's real body doesn't heal by going to different form. The forms just have their own HP. Basically it goes like this.
Druid with 3hp goes to bear form. He gains the X amount of HP that bear gives. If he reverts back he will be back to 3hp. If HP of the bear form goes to the 0 then druid will take any excess damage to this leftover 3hp.
Barbarians have more HP than druid with their forms when you take into account resistance. Aka effective HP is far higher.

"but the main problem here is the use of the power as a bonus action, and not an action as per RAW"
Moon druids can shift forms on bonus action RAW.

Further, the combat utility of non-moon Wild Shape is extremely limited. Unless we're meant to be impressed with black bears at 4th level with their 19 HP and 11 AC.

[Gaius]

Escrito originalmente por Pumis:

Escrito originalmente por Brigador:

I think his issue (and this kinda makes sense) is - a druid with infinite shapeshifting could basically use a diferent HP bar per turn even without losing a single attack. In reality, not infinite, but the number of shapeshifting forms available in the game.

Well, in the end of the day, unless druids have many forms with high HP, it doesn't matter that much. If they DO, tough, might be an issue. In the end of the day, this is a tem based PvE game, so balance is not THAT essential unless you feel forced into a single class and subclass because it's way too good.

Druids only gain infinite shapeshifting at level 20. At that point pretty much every character is a god and they have ways to deal with it. Druids have only 2 shapeshifts per short rest. While their forms don't really do that much damage and scales poorly in late game due to not having magical items supporting them. It's just a damage sponge that can't force people to attack them. Smart enemies will just ignore them and focus on glass canons. Then pick druid last.

But this is what we are discussing, isn't it? That in BG3 shapeshifting is infinite from start?

[Gaius]

Escrito originalmente por Pumis:

Escrito originalmente por Brigador:

But this is what we are discussing, isn't it? That in BG3 shapeshifting is infinite from start?

On what reasoning it's infinite? The druid haven't come out yet or did I miss the patch download or something?

In the panel they explained why it didn't need to have the number limitation due to in game people just have to choose between pre-defined forms that are balanced per level, unless I grossly misunderstood something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAr-fvEPgA8&t=8015s&ab_channel=LarianStudios

42:00 start the part Jeremy Crawford explains this change because of the media allows for it.

[Gaius]

Escrito originalmente por Pumis:

Escrito originalmente por Brigador:

In the panel they explained why it didn't need to have the number limitation due to in game people just have to choose between pre-defined forms that are balanced per level, unless I grossly misunderstood something.

Well I would wait for the patch before jumping on the gun on that regard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAr-fvEPgA8&t=8015s&ab_channel=LarianStudios

Just check 54:50 in the video I linked, the lead D&D dude (Jeremy Crawford) explains why there won't be a limit in shapeshifting per rest in BG3.

[Something completely different]

Escrito originalmente por Pumis:

So let's add something more... The utility of druid what your ranger can never achieve.
Not only can druid out DPS you. He can also provide utility. He can be group's scout with his wildshape, in fact druids are best stealth class. He can also provide be damage sponge with his wildshape. Thus able to cover dead tank or missing players. He provides buffs and debuffs while ground control. Not to mention heals.
Meanwhile all you can do is to give better movement in certain type of terrain and some low tier druid spells. While you do mediocre damage that will be quickly outclassed by literally all the classes in the game. In which point your ranger is actually useless burden to the group.

While paladin provides helpful auras, good sustained and very good burst damage. Fighter becomes death incarnation. Not to mention that you rely on handcrossbows which doesn't really have magical items for them. You are stuck on 2 attacks for rest of the game. While Paladin can get extra attacks with their level 20 skills or spells they get (haste for vengeance). Not only that but they both have higher AC and HP pool than you do. While your ranger relies on other group mates to do the CC and tanking for you. They do the same damage and provide even more to the team.

Simply put... All you can offer is variant human build using Xanathar buffed subclass which I already mentioned that was used to buff ranger class. While my orginal statement is still true. Aka PhB player's handbook ranger is pure trash.

To summarize:
Druid can tank, heal, do ridiculous damage, provide support and stealth.
Ranger can only be bit useful if using variant human rule and playing with Xanathar buffed subclasses. And they are still quickly falling from the favor. While every other class get's progressively stronger. For any other race your build would only be possible at level 8 in which spell casters get access to level 4 spells.

Yet you are seriously trying to imply that your ranger is broken or even good.

You keep going on over higher level advantages of classes. I know those. The argument was specificly about level 5. At level 8 the ranger would have 3 levels from a different class added as well.

As for the druid, their combat healing is really bad as they have no low level ranged heal (out of combat it's okay even with healing spirit nerfed), rangers have spike growth for awesome CC as well and can be quite stealthy if required as well with pass without trace and high dexterity.

I haven't worked out the build till 20 but I am sure it'd be interesting to compare to your level 20 paladin.

Anyways, I think we made our points.

[Something completely different]

Escrito originalmente por Pumis:

Escrito originalmente por Brigador:

In the panel they explained why it didn't need to have the number limitation due to in game people just have to choose between pre-defined forms that are balanced per level, unless I grossly misunderstood something.

Well I would wait for the patch before jumping on the gun on that regard.

Yeah I'd wait as well. I also recall someone claimed to have seen a 2 on the ability in a vid somewhere.

I know, vague, but unlimited shifts is a lv 20 ability, how are you going to adjust shapes when you have a druid circle that has much stronger shapes?

[Dragon Master]

Swen did have to use a short rest to recover his wildeshape in the livestream though.

[Hobocop]

Wild Shape is still 2 per short rest as of the video. Other limitations are being relaxed because unlike TT, what forms you can take are pre-programmed, while on TT, the designers can't effectively predict what beasts each campaign will have that druids can utilize.

Similar rationale can be applied to the changes for Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy for the Ranger. Too many overly niche options with many that will have a good chance of never being utilized over the course of a campaign with preset content, so best to rework them into fewer, more general options.

[Gaius]

Escrito originalmente por Pumis:

Escrito originalmente por Brigador:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAr-fvEPgA8&t=8015s&ab_channel=LarianStudios

Just check 54:50 in the video I linked, the lead D&D dude (Jeremy Crawford) explains why there won't be a limit in shapeshifting per rest in BG3.

He said that dismissing the shape is free, there are no free wildshapes.
Edit: You can even see in video that wildshape has numbers on it telling how many uses you have left.

Wild Shape is still 2 per short rest as of the video. Other limitations are being relaxed because unlike TT, what forms you can take are pre-programmed, while on TT, the designers can't effectively predict what beasts each campaign will have that druids can utilize.

Similar rationale can be applied to the changes for Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy for the Ranger. Too many overly niche options with many that will have a good chance of never being utilized over the course of a campaign with preset content, so best to rework them into fewer, more general options.

Yeah, this seems to be right. I didn't pay attention to what Larian stated they changed, just to the answer (where he actually said both speed and availability could be free without the liberty to surprise the GM with forms basically). Oh well, guess this is a non issue then.

[Indure]

Escrito originalmente por 76561198073268469:

Escrito originalmente por Pumis:

To add here. I would also like to point out that by RAW druid should be able to wildshape to any other beast while already being in wildshape in PnP as well. However they can't dimiss their form without using action or bonus action. Dev's made the mistake of not knowing that so they made dismissing shape free. Though it won't be breaking the game. It only saves bonus action from the druid whenever going back to caster form.

They also can't transform into an animal with a Swim speed until level 4, and need to wait until level 8 to turn into something with a Fly speed.

This is true in D&D, but Larian already showed the druid can turn into a bird before level 4. I assume it's balance because flight doesn't really exist in the game. It will be interesting if Larian gives druids any bonuses at lvl 4 and 8 to compensate for the "lose".

[Hobocop]

Those restrictions on movement methods are likely relaxed because as mentioned before, all the forms druids can take are known factors in the context of a computer game. A raven as the sole source of flight in the Wild Shape repertoire is a far cry from literally any flying beast. Flying snakes for example deal absurd damage for their CR (1/8), have a +6 to-hit and flyby combined with a 60 ft flight speed, meaning they can attack and remain out of the reach of most creatures at that level with impunity.

Since we already know that form isn't likely to be an option in BG3, allowing druids to take only raven form at level 2 even though it has a flight speed isn't as much of an issue, since the form's combat prowess is almost nonexistent.

[Gaius]

Escrito originalmente por Hobocop:

Those restrictions on movement methods are likely relaxed because as mentioned before, all the forms druids can take are known factors in the context of a computer game. A raven as the sole source of flight in the Wild Shape repertoire is a far cry from literally any flying beast. Flying snakes for example deal absurd damage for their CR (1/8), have a +6 to-hit and flyby combined with a 60 ft flight speed, meaning they can attack and remain out of the reach of most creatures at that level with impunity.

Since we already know that form isn't likely to be an option in BG3, allowing druids to take only raven form at level 2 even though it has a flight speed isn't as much of an issue, since the form's combat prowess is almost nonexistent.

And if in the future we get queatzcoatl or dinossaurs in some expansion I'm sure they'll be level adjusted (and probably mechanically too) so they are not just god mode. Like you said, in videogames all possibilities are foreseeable so they can be balanced.