Saving Halsin - Goblin Children, general dialogue

[MeinChurro]

This is spoilers.

When you find Halsin in the Goblin camp he is getting rocks thrown at him - while in bear form - by a couple Goblin children. All dialogue options that involve rescuing Halsin lead to the two Goblin children becoming hostile, and or (depending on initiative) Halsin executing one of them. While it is understandable, that Halsin would kill these kids, who have been effectively torturing him, I do not like that my character would always allow it. Rather, I do not like that I am not given an option to prevent it, and for that matter, it is encouraged to kill them, before they call for more guards.

On top of this feedback, I'd like to suggest some new dialogue options for this interaction. As far as I am aware, every line of dialogue leads to three interactions, attacking the goblins, killing Halsin, or letting the Goblins and Halsin fight it out. I'd like an additional dialogue option, a dialogue check (probably persuasian), to get the goblin children to leave the area. Not only do I think it would be a better option for a player who doesn't want to have to kill the goblin children, it would also benefit players who invest in speech skills by making the (potential) fight less difficult, by not having the children around to call for more guards.

[War Maiden]

So. what do you want OP? I understand your 'issue' with killing children. I really do. But you also have to realize. You are conceptualized in a game. A VIDEO GAME. That being said, many not realize this. But if those Goblin 'children' think you are an enemy, they WILL TRY TO KILL YOU. So, what will you do? Believe the child an evil seed and kill it or will you falther and allow it to KILL YOU? There are a lot of religious scenarios that can sway the fight to go either way. But most people want survival, yes? So you would slay the attacking creature, child or not. Survival isn't pretty, whether it is evil or good, it is, what it is.

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by War Maiden:

So. what do you want OP? I understand your 'issue' with killing children. I really do. But you also have to realize. You are conceptualized in a game. A VIDEO GAME. That being said, many not realize this. But if those Goblin 'children' think you are an enemy, they WILL TRY TO KILL YOU. So, what will you do? Believe the child an evil seed and kill it or will you falther and allow it to KILL YOU? There are a lot of religious scenarios that can sway the fight to go either way. But most people want survival, yes? So you would slay the attacking creature, child or not. Survival isn't pretty, whether it is evil or good, it is, what it is.

What exactly are you talking about? I am not asking to TAKE AWAY the option to kill these children. I am asking for an additional dialogue option, as another avenue to approach this interaction.

I am not debating the issues of morality here.

I have no issues with the option being available, and I acknowledged Halsin being motivated to kill these Goblin children - specifically while in bear form - to be understandable. For example, as a drow character I would probably attack them. However, some of my good characters WOULD have an issue doing so, and in dialogue WOULD try to persuade the children to leave the area. As I said, more options. My suggestion doesn't even involve changing the outcome of the interaction.

[War Maiden]

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

Originally posted by War Maiden:

So. what do you want OP? I understand your 'issue' with killing children. I really do. But you also have to realize. You are conceptualized in a game. A VIDEO GAME. That being said, many not realize this. But if those Goblin 'children' think you are an enemy, they WILL TRY TO KILL YOU. So, what will you do? Believe the child an evil seed and kill it or will you falther and allow it to KILL YOU? There are a lot of religious scenarios that can sway the fight to go either way. But most people want survival, yes? So you would slay the attacking creature, child or not. Survival isn't pretty, whether it is evil or good, it is, what it is.

What exactly are you talking about? I am not asking to TAKE AWAY the option to kill these children, I am asking for an additional dialogue option, as another avenue to approach this interaction.

I am not debating the issues of morality here.

I have no issues with the option being available, and I acknowledged Halsin being motivated to kill these Goblin children - specifically while in bear form - to be understandable. For example, as a drow character I would probably attack them. However, some of my good characters WOULD have an issue doing so, and in dialogue WOULD try to persuade the children to leave the area. As I said, more options. My request doesn't even involve changing the outcome of the interaction.

Alright. I see your want, but it won't happen. For Various reasons:

I should just say as a Drow Fem Ranger, I typically kill one of the Goblin 'Children' usually #8 in the field that seems to like to mock the dead adventurer. I do it from the rise to not be noticed, plus then I kill the scout on the side.

I know that there are 'a lot' of people whom will fuss about the fact that one will have the capability to kill children, but one has to acknowledge that Goblin children whom are able to conceptualize their situation, will try to eat the adversary. So no, do I feel bad to kill then? Not one bit. EVIL comes in many forms, small and large.

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by War Maiden:

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

What exactly are you talking about? I am not asking to TAKE AWAY the option to kill these children, I am asking for an additional dialogue option, as another avenue to approach this interaction.

I am not debating the issues of morality here.

I have no issues with the option being available, and I acknowledged Halsin being motivated to kill these Goblin children - specifically while in bear form - to be understandable. For example, as a drow character I would probably attack them. However, some of my good characters WOULD have an issue doing so, and in dialogue WOULD try to persuade the children to leave the area. As I said, more options. My request doesn't even involve changing the outcome of the interaction.

Alright. I see your want, but it won't happen. For Various reasons:

I should just say as a Drow Fem Ranger, I typically kill one of the Goblin 'Children' usually #8 in the field that seems to like to mock the dead adventurer. I do it from the rise to not be noticed, plus then I kill the scout on the side.

I know that there are 'a lot' of people whom will fuss about the fact that one will have the capability to kill children, but one has to acknowledge that Goblin children whom are able to conceptualize their situation, will try to eat the adversary. So no, do I feel bad to kill then? Not one bit. EVIL comes in many forms, small and large.

What "reasons" did you give here? Other than your subjective motivations for killing Goblin children in general. I am specifically talking about the Halsin in bear form interaction. Which has a woeful lack of dialogue choices in the first place; they all lead to the exact same outcomes. My suggestion includes a dialogue check that not only would enhance the interaction, not just for players who do not want to kill children, even goblins, but also include a potential check for players who have invested in specific dialogue skills, and or background choices, rewarding those players for doing so. Failure of said check could still lead to having to attack or kill them, but that, again, enhances the interaction.

My suggestion has literally no downsides, other than seemingly not being forced into having to attack, and possibly kill a couple kids. It literally adds to the overall roleplay of the situation. I already stated I wasn't going to debate morality here, but you seem to be conflating my feedback and suggestion as doing so. Not to mention, taking the opportunity to discuss it yourself.

You know what? For sake of argument, I'll humor you. As you say, "EVIL comes in many forms, small and large". In this interaction you are actually always the one initiating the attack, these kids do no initiate the attack on you, you initiate on them, either by attacking them directly through several dialogue "options", or joining Halsin in his attack. As I said, the dialogue on this interaction is woefully lacking.

[War Maiden]

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

What "reasons" did you give here? Other than your subjective motivations for killing Goblin children in general. I am specifically talking about the Halsin in bear form interaction. Which has a woeful lack of dialogue choices in the first place; they all lead to the exact same outcomes. My suggestion includes a dialogue check that not only would enhance the interaction, not just for players who do not want to kill children, even goblins, but also include a potential check for players who have invested in specific dialogue skills, and or background choices, rewarding those players for doing so. Failure of said check could still lead to having to attack or kill them, but that, again, enhances the interaction.

My suggestion has literally no downsides, other than seemingly not being forced into having to attack, and possibly kill a couple kids. It literally adds to the overall roleplay of the situation. I already stated I wasn't going to debate morality here, but you seem to be conflating my feedback and suggestion as doing so. Not to mention, taking the opportunity to discuss it yourself.

So, you might not have noticed, but Halsin is a bit of a stupid jerk. He wants you and he to fight 'all' the goblins, and it takes us telling him it's a bad idea (essentially don't be an idiot) to stay where he is and let us handle it. We can persuade him to stay put, which is a good idea of that is the intent. After we kill the Bosses, we can come back to his room, and talk to him, and he will be pleased and tell us he will come back to the grove at his own pace.

Also, for the record. I do not save Halsin. He is a ♥♥♥♥'bag with his brawny self and he can't help us. So, saving him is a waste in the big picture. But in the Act 1 Picture, he only as good as if we saved the Grove or laid it to waste.

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by War Maiden:

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

What "reasons" did you give here? Other than your subjective motivations for killing Goblin children in general. I am specifically talking about the Halsin in bear form interaction. Which has a woeful lack of dialogue choices in the first place; they all lead to the exact same outcomes. My suggestion includes a dialogue check that not only would enhance the interaction, not just for players who do not want to kill children, even goblins, but also include a potential check for players who have invested in specific dialogue skills, and or background choices, rewarding those players for doing so. Failure of said check could still lead to having to attack or kill them, but that, again, enhances the interaction.

My suggestion has literally no downsides, other than seemingly not being forced into having to attack, and possibly kill a couple kids. It literally adds to the overall roleplay of the situation. I already stated I wasn't going to debate morality here, but you seem to be conflating my feedback and suggestion as doing so. Not to mention, taking the opportunity to discuss it yourself.

So, you might not have noticed, but Halsin is a bit of a stupid jerk. He wants you and he to fight 'all' the goblins, and it takes us telling him it's a bad idea (essentially don't be an idiot) to stay where he is and let us handle it. We can persuade him to stay put, which is a good idea of that is the intent. After we kill the Bosses, we can come back to his room, and talk to him, and he will be pleased and tell us he will come back to the grove at his own pace.

I just did this interaction on my cleric. Perhaps you got that interaction from choosing different dialogue choices than me. Anyway, Halsin actually just wants the goblin leaders dead, and offers to help, but warns us his help would probably involve having to clear the entire goblin camp. Due to him being so feral while in bear form, he will attack goblins on sight. On top of that he had already referred me to Moonrise. He actually offered to help me with moonrise too, I'm pretty sure.

This is what I meant by additional dialogue options, enhancing the roleplay. I seem to have gotten a completely different interaction with Halsin than you. This is what I am suggesting here.

Originally posted by War Maiden:

Also, for the record. I do not save Halsin. He is a ♥♥♥♥'bag with his brawny self and he can't help us. So, saving him is a waste in the big picture. But in the Act 1 Picture, he only as good as if we saved the Grove or laid it to waste.

The amount of roleplay in this game is insane, I have gotta say. Again, the fact that our interactions with this character are completely different exemplifies this.

[N/A]

Originally posted by War Maiden:

they WILL TRY TO KILL YOU. So, what will you do? Believe the child an evil seed and kill it or will you falther and allow it to KILL YOU?

Lemme butt in and ask what the hell a little goblin turd is gonna do, they just run away, if they tried to shiv you a smack in the face would be all it took to stop them.

I'm by no means a goblin apologist but like, think about the effort you're wasting going for them instead of the mugs actively attacking you. A goblin deliberately trying not to be near you is a solved problem.

[War Maiden]

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

The amount of roleplay in this game is insane, I have gotta say. Again, the fact that our interactions with this character are completely different exemplifies this.

I think that as well. The fact that we get different routes per our choices is nice, and I fully appreciate the work put in to make such a thing happen. Halsin was kinda a d*ck to me. He already almost died when fighting the goblins in the room where he was caged and now he wants to take on the whole camp? Hell no. He would die, and then I would be screwed IRT the rescue, so I just told him to keep himself in the room and I would come get him when I was done.

Originally posted by N/A:

Lemme butt in and ask what the hell a little goblin turd is gonna do, they just run away, if they tried to shiv you a smack in the face would be all it took to stop them.

I completely understand your position. But while you are thinking 'in the moment', you are not thinking ahead, aka 'forethought'.

Depending on which 'Goblin kids' you are killing IE: The ones just outside the 'block party' in the courtyard, or the ones tossing stones at Halsin in the worg pens, do you really want any of those Goblins to get away, to alert the whole camp? No. As possibly difficult as it may be for some to slay a child, you kill them before they can raise the alarm. So no, going for them, trying to get to the door or Wardrum to raise the alarm is top priority. Otherwise, your whole party is possibly going to die because you let it happen. (We will just not mention the whole warp to camp thing because that is kinda cheating, and defeats the purpose of a Basecamp raid.)

[Grymspeak]

I have a character that absolutely hates goblins. It's a role play choice. He watched his family get slaughtered by goblins as a child. As a result, he became an "urchin" and had to learn to live on the streets. You can imagine what this does to a kid. Therefore, the only good gobbo is a dead one (for this character at least).

[a random dude]

Originally posted by War Maiden:

So. what do you want OP? I understand your 'issue' with killing children. I really do. But you also have to realize. You are conceptualized in a game. A VIDEO GAME. That being said, many not realize this. But if those Goblin 'children' think you are an enemy, they WILL TRY TO KILL YOU. So, what will you do? Believe the child an evil seed and kill it or will you falther and allow it to KILL YOU? There are a lot of religious scenarios that can sway the fight to go either way. But most people want survival, yes? So you would slay the attacking creature, child or not. Survival isn't pretty, whether it is evil or good, it is, what it is.

People like that guy is the reason why modern gaming is less fun than old video games. He took it personally when it comes to killing some 3d kids lmao

[「HS」Interfector ex Domini]

Agreed, i just cant think of any logical reason youd help the bear kill everyone there
no matter your aligments, a lawful good would let the bear rot but get the kids to stop, doing that will result in you having to kill the bear cause thats when he decides to escape which he could do the whole damn time apparently, any of the goods wouldnt kill the children anyways. not after getting there peacefully

being evil means youd probably join the gob kids in pestering the bear

I just cant think of any reason why a player of any allignment would choose to kill all those goblins to save a bear
a bear you dont even know is halsin
make it need to be a crit roll or something just make it possible to try and get him out peacefully
otherwise it just breaks the immersion.
and im a tiefling saving my brethern from the gobs, but as tiefling i understand the goblins more than any other race would, considered evil virmin and the like, so even that im saving tieflings from goblins isnt a logical reason to just slaughter any goblin willy nilly

you could save everyone else in a multitude of ways, just not halsin.
and i love gobs, theyre funny, so ill never choose halsin unless they can make it so its logical for my character to choose him over a whole camp of "peacefull" gobs

the only reason i could think of, is playing as a murder hungry bastard killing every1 anyways

[JimDandy]

As a Paladin, I ended up using the non-lethal toggle to reach the kids first and knock them unconsious, then toggled it off to finish the rest.

I agree that adding an option (nothing needs to be taken away from the current dialogue) to interact with Halsin-in-Bear-form prior to this would be a nice enhancement, however.

(As for shooting Goblin kids from afar that aren't actively attacking you but sadistically kicking a corpse... a DM would have said my character had broken his Oath. Evil comes in many forms, indeed.)