Can we talk about barrels?

[Nonaym]

I've got 408.1 hours in an EA game that has between 21 and 24 hours of content. I've played BG3 since the release and I've been having a blast! I already feel like my money was well spent - good job (so far) Larian!
But the barrels though...
Every patch it seems like the fun barrels (water, oil, smoke powder, firewater) have less and less utility. In the early days there was a pick up cursor for these barrels, which turned into and attack cursor. Though you could still right click to pick them up.
The fun/utility was in being able to properly manipulate and throw these barrels. Any character, not simply the high strength ones, used to be able to do this.
Not so with Patch 5!
There is a particular point in EA where you character stumbles across a treasure trove of "fun barrels". I used to be able to stuff my PC's inventory with these barrels for later use. Now, that character wasn't able manipulate them, much less to stuff them in the inventory.
Also, barrels are no longer throw-able. Which takes the fun out of, well, the fun barrels.
Creatively using barrels to put out fires and slay dragons is part of the charm for me with games like BG3. I can understand toning down the environmental pyrotechnics. I know what it's like to have characters perched atop a wooden tower, with the entire location a molten field of pure destruction below. (Sweet-sweet D:OS2!)
But completely hamstringing the utility of barrels seems a bridge too far.
I do have a clear barrel-bias though.

[War Maiden]

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

Push, drag or lifting a barrel is fine - kind of like how it works now in Patch 5 (Str allowing).

Their frequency of appearance also needs to make sense. There are, overall, too many explosives in Act 1. What I'm saying here is that they're overused. Not just barrels, but also grenades and arrows. There's too much 'surface effects', but particularly fire. It seems like everything's on fire, all the time. All goblins have pockets full of grenades and quivers full of fire arrows. It starts to feel like a Metal Gear game instead of a D&D game. See, in most D&D games those sorts of items aren't common. You might see some once in a while, particularly when the DM wants to set up an encounter that uses something like that as a centerpiece.

Larian hands this stuff out like candy. Barrels are just the most visible symptom of this kind of encounter design.

Well, I cannot comment on Patch 5 Goblins, as I have not pressed that far. I am taking it slow. Scribing everything that I see different, and that is a bug/issue/visual abberation, or some other thing that needs to be reported. I just noticed the STR Stat Score issue by comparing it to 5e on a whim.

I think I have mentioned this before. I am an 'Operative' I use the environment as a weapon, whether it be a barrel, a source that can be combusted, a ravine, or any other man or natural source to exploit. Barrels IMHO, have been reeled back to only their most simplest terms. A single combustible barrel in the 2nd room of the Bedchamber for example, and the room with a ton of smoke powder in the Goblin Lair. These are naturally occurring things as per the story. It isn't like every 50 feet you see an explosive barrel of some sort. This is what I mean by people taking this thing to extremes. It is not happening. It was, in the beginning, but as you said, they have toned down the level and are moving forward in a meaningful way.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

İlk olarak War Maiden tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

Push, drag or lifting a barrel is fine - kind of like how it works now in Patch 5 (Str allowing).

Their frequency of appearance also needs to make sense. There are, overall, too many explosives in Act 1. What I'm saying here is that they're overused. Not just barrels, but also grenades and arrows. There's too much 'surface effects', but particularly fire. It seems like everything's on fire, all the time. All goblins have pockets full of grenades and quivers full of fire arrows. It starts to feel like a Metal Gear game instead of a D&D game. See, in most D&D games those sorts of items aren't common. You might see some once in a while, particularly when the DM wants to set up an encounter that uses something like that as a centerpiece.

Larian hands this stuff out like candy. Barrels are just the most visible symptom of this kind of encounter design.

It isn't like every 50 feet you see an explosive barrel of some sort.

But that's exactly what I'm driving at - it really is like that.

[War Maiden]

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak War Maiden tarafından gönderildi:

It isn't like every 50 feet you see an explosive barrel of some sort.

But that's exactly what I'm driving at - it really is like that.

But it isn't Panda. How long has it been since you played the game? I test it nearly every day, sometimes in tandem with Suralle. They don't have it like that in BG3 anymore.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

İlk olarak War Maiden tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

But that's exactly what I'm driving at - it really is like that.

But it isn't Panda. How long has it been since you played the game? I test it nearly every day, sometimes in tandem with Suralle. They don't have it like that in BG3 anymore.

It is.

I've counted them. There's far too many. Stuff like explosive barrels should be rare occurrences, maybe once in all of Act 1.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Let's list some explosives just off the top of our heads (I'm sure I'll miss some, and I'll try to keep these in order, though I'm sure I'll screw that up):

- First fight with imps on nautiloid (plus entire ship is on fire).
- Fight with imps, thralls and ID on top deck of nautiloid.
- There's a ton of caustic brine bags in the helm, not sure if it's flammable or not, but I think it is.
- On the beach, fight with three ID's (not to mention the whole thing is still on fire).
- Dank Crypt, Bedchamber.
- Dank Crypt, sarcophagus trap (grease + firebolts).
- It's not part of an encounter, but there is an explosive barrel at the Harper cache.
- The goblins in the cave under the Druid's Grove (guardian statues). Two different spots even, and a whole bunch of spilled oil that can be ignited.
- Goblin ambush at the Blighted Village (I've actually never seen this one, but someone told me about it.
- Explosive land mines at the goblin lookout between Blighted Village and Ruined Temple (left hand path after bridge).
- Explosive barrels next to drunk goblins behind the goblin lookout.
- Entrance to ruined temple (near 'stage' where Volo performs).
- Cave where Zhent agents are defending against gnolls - barrels in the back entrance (trapped), and huge stash of alchemists fire to keep the entrance lit.
- Zhent hideout (stacked to the ceiling with explosive barrels).
- Waukeen's Rest is on fire (technically not an 'explosive barrel', but deserves mentioning since it, like most of this world, is already on fire).
- Numerous torch stalks everywhere in the Underspark.
- Dwarf with dementia trapped by explosive gas.


So, that's quite an EXTENSIVE list of explosives already, did I miss any?

[War Maiden]

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

Let's list some explosives just off the top of our heads (I'm sure I'll miss some, and I'll try to keep these in order, though I'm sure I'll screw that up):

- First fight with imps on nautiloid (plus entire ship is on fire).
- Fight with imps, thralls and ID on top deck of nautiloid.
- There's a ton of caustic brine bags in the helm, not sure if it's flammable or not, but I think it is.
- On the beach, fight with three ID's (not to mention the whole thing is still on fire).
- Dank Crypt, Bedchamber.
- Dank Crypt, sarcophagus trap (grease + firebolts).
- It's not part of an encounter, but there is an explosive barrel at the Harper cache.
- The goblins in the cave under the Druid's Grove (guardian statues). Two different spots even, and a whole bunch of spilled oil that can be ignited.
- Goblin ambush at the Blighted Village (I've actually never seen this one, but someone told me about it.
- Explosive land mines at the goblin lookout between Blighted Village and Ruined Temple (left hand path after bridge).
- Explosive barrels next to drunk goblins behind the goblin lookout.
- Entrance to ruined temple (near 'stage' where Volo performs).
- Cave where Zhent agents are defending against gnolls - barrels in the back entrance (trapped), and huge stash of alchemists fire to keep the entrance lit.
- Zhent hideout (stacked to the ceiling with explosive barrels).
- Waukeen's Rest is on fire (technically not an 'explosive barrel', but deserves mentioning since it, like most of this world, is already on fire).
- Numerous torch stalks everywhere in the Underspark.
- Dwarf with dementia trapped by explosive gas.


So, that's quite an EXTENSIVE list of explosives already, did I miss any?

Moh. I can tell you the Fluid tanks are no longer interactive as per Patch 5, unless you dip your arrows in fire. BTW, I never used dip before, so I would never of thought of that. Suralle found that during our in-game collaboration.

Bedchamer is fine, it's one oil barrel, don't be fussy, and the 5 idiot raiders prolly brought it in there to blow up a stubborn door or something, perfectly legit.

I don't remember there being any barrels at the angry gobbie encounter in BV, either it's new or someones fibbing to us. There is enough to worry about in that fight without barrels in play.

The barrels there at the gobbie checkpoint are for backup, but they aren't really smart enough to use them as intended, hence our opening. Plus they are all disgruntled, which makes for a good psychological outcome for us. (Because everyone else is getting hammered but them)

So the throughfare that you go through, that there is firewine barrels was supposed to be a smuggling area, hence the traps. Apparently it was abandoned, but the Zhent agents ended up at the peak of the area defending it from the previous attack on their caravan. Now they are forced to use combustibles to fend of the Gnolls and their leader. The barrels of firewine were left. So we should just ignore a good opportunity and leave them as they are? Or should we help the Zhents, make some money and in the end get a nice mace? It really is up to the MC to figure out the moral/logic/sensible option there.

Yes, the Hidden Path or what ever it's name is (Sorry, a little tired). So someone spilled some oil. OMG, what are we to do. There are water barrels there as well which can negate the oil. So, what do we choose? Would we use the 'natural' found environment to our advantage, or would we push a water barrel, or throw a water bottle on the oil? If you chose throw the water you would be a fool, unless you intended to use a lightning spell to shock them all to death.

I have not got to the Goblin Basecamp in Patch 5 so I cannot comment on the utility of what would be found there, yet.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Nothing you just said is relevant in the slightest to the point I made.

Explosions (the most obvious and egregious, but not the only, being the explosive barrels) are far too common. Fire surfaces are far too common.

It gets boring and stupid when 3/4 of all encounters involve explosions and exploits that let you take out 1/2 or more of the opposition with a shot you fire before combat even starts.

That's not balance, that's gimmick. It's ok in moderation - one or two in an area the size we have now to play around in. More than that and it becomes lazy and tedious.

[Wyrlish]

İlk olarak War Maiden tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

Let's list some explosives just off the top of our heads (I'm sure I'll miss some, and I'll try to keep these in order, though I'm sure I'll screw that up):

- First fight with imps on nautiloid (plus entire ship is on fire).
- Fight with imps, thralls and ID on top deck of nautiloid.
- There's a ton of caustic brine bags in the helm, not sure if it's flammable or not, but I think it is.
- On the beach, fight with three ID's (not to mention the whole thing is still on fire).
- Dank Crypt, Bedchamber.
- Dank Crypt, sarcophagus trap (grease + firebolts).
- It's not part of an encounter, but there is an explosive barrel at the Harper cache.
- The goblins in the cave under the Druid's Grove (guardian statues). Two different spots even, and a whole bunch of spilled oil that can be ignited.
- Goblin ambush at the Blighted Village (I've actually never seen this one, but someone told me about it.
- Explosive land mines at the goblin lookout between Blighted Village and Ruined Temple (left hand path after bridge).
- Explosive barrels next to drunk goblins behind the goblin lookout.
- Entrance to ruined temple (near 'stage' where Volo performs).
- Cave where Zhent agents are defending against gnolls - barrels in the back entrance (trapped), and huge stash of alchemists fire to keep the entrance lit.
- Zhent hideout (stacked to the ceiling with explosive barrels).
- Waukeen's Rest is on fire (technically not an 'explosive barrel', but deserves mentioning since it, like most of this world, is already on fire).
- Numerous torch stalks everywhere in the Underspark.
- Dwarf with dementia trapped by explosive gas.


So, that's quite an EXTENSIVE list of explosives already, did I miss any?

Moh. I can tell you the Fluid tanks are no longer interactive as per Patch 5, unless you dip your arrows in fire. BTW, I never used dip before, so I would never of thought of that. Suralle found that during our in-game collaboration.

Bedchamer is fine, it's one oil barrel, don't be fussy, and the 5 idiot raiders prolly brought it in there to blow up a stubborn door or something, perfectly legit.

I don't remember there being any barrels at the angry gobbie encounter in BV, either it's new or someones fibbing to us. There is enough to worry about in that fight without barrels in play.

The barrels there at the gobbie checkpoint are for backup, but they aren't really smart enough to use them as intended, hence our opening. Plus they are all disgruntled, which makes for a good psychological outcome for us. (Because everyone else is getting hammered but them)

So the throughfare that you go through, that there is firewine barrels was supposed to be a smuggling area, hence the traps. Apparently it was abandoned, but the Zhent agents ended up at the peak of the area defending it from the previous attack on their caravan. Now they are forced to use combustibles to fend of the Gnolls and their leader. The barrels of firewine were left. So we should just ignore a good opportunity and leave them as they are? Or should we help the Zhents, make some money and in the end get a nice mace? It really is up to the MC to figure out the moral/logic/sensible option there.

Yes, the Hidden Path or what ever it's name is (Sorry, a little tired). So someone spilled some oil. OMG, what are we to do. There are water barrels there as well which can negate the oil. So, what do we choose? Would we use the 'natural' found environment to our advantage, or would we push a water barrel, or throw a water bottle on the oil? If you chose throw the water you would be a fool, unless you intended to use a lightning spell to shock them all to death.

I have not got to the Goblin Basecamp in Patch 5 so I cannot comment on the utility of what would be found there, yet.

Man you're talking to min-maxing RAW gamers who need "exploits" removed because they have no self control and can't help but use them if they exist.
You may as well be yelling at a wall, it's just as dense and boring as they are.

[Horiuk]

thx god... barrelmancy is nerfed !!! :)

[War Maiden]

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

Nothing you just said is relevant in the slightest to the point I made.

Explosions (the most obvious and egregious, but not the only, being the explosive barrels) are far too common. Fire surfaces are far too common.

It was completely relevant. You said that barrels and surfaces and explosives and the like are littered everywhere and that its excessive and far too common, and you just said it above as well. I simply annotated where a good portion of them are and why their current placement is anything but excessive, and how they could very well be found out in the field quite normally. You just chose to ignore it.

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

It gets boring and stupid when 3/4 of all encounters involve explosions and exploits that let you take out 1/2 or more of the opposition with a shot you fire before combat even starts.

That's not balance, that's gimmick. It's ok in moderation - one or two in an area the size we have now to play around in. More than that and it becomes lazy and tedious.

And once again, that is your opinion, and you are certainly welcome to it, but as I told you, any more than the changes we have now, and again some minor tweaking of the numbers for stats is probably all you are going to get in this regard. So you can fuss till you are blue in the face, but the only one whom is gonna be mad, is you, for wasted energy.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

İlk olarak War Maiden tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

Nothing you just said is relevant in the slightest to the point I made.

Explosions (the most obvious and egregious, but not the only, being the explosive barrels) are far too common. Fire surfaces are far too common.

It was completely relevant. You said that barrels and surfaces and explosives and the like are littered everywhere and that its excessive and far too common, and you just said it above as well. I simply annotated where a good portion of them are and why their current placement is anything but excessive, and how they could very well be found out in the field quite normally. You just chose to ignore it.

All you did was attempt to justify through narrative and mental gymnastics why all those barrels/explosives were there without addressing the primary point: there are FAR TOO MANY.

I don't care about the excuses for WHY they're there, and when I said it was irrelevant to the point I was making, I meant it.

İlk olarak War Maiden tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

Nothing you just said is relevant in the slightest to the point I made.

Explosions (the most obvious and egregious, but not the only, being the explosive barrels) are far too common. Fire surfaces are far too common.

İlk olarak pandariuskairos tarafından gönderildi:

It gets boring and stupid when 3/4 of all encounters involve explosions and exploits that let you take out 1/2 or more of the opposition with a shot you fire before combat even starts.

That's not balance, that's gimmick. It's ok in moderation - one or two in an area the size we have now to play around in. More than that and it becomes lazy and tedious.

And once again, that is your opinion, and you are certainly welcome to it, but as I told you, any more than the changes we have now, and again some minor tweaking of the numbers for stats is probably all you are going to get in this regard. So you can fuss till you are blue in the face, but the only one whom is gonna be mad, is you, for wasted energy.

I really hate it when people say "that's just your opinion" - I mean, that's just pointing out the obvious, and I could sit here and just throw that back in your face. I mean, it's just your opinion that that's just my opinion. It's so childish. We could sit here doing that all day and the conversation will never progress. Pointing out that what someone says is their opinion is like pointing out that they have a nose on their face.

Also, you really like to take the authoritative stance, as if you're a spokesperson for Larian. You have no idea what Larian will change next. They've already removed surface effects from cantrips (at community request), reverted Disengage to a full action and separated it from Jump (at community request), added food/camp supplies to long resting (at community request), and made barrels more difficult to use than before (at community request).

I imagine that you pretend to be a authority on what Larian will or will not do next because you are afraid of the changes that we propose. You know that Larian will alter the game based on feedback, so this is you attempting to squelch feedback you don't like in an attempt to prevent it from happening.

I got news for you. I can't speak for everyone, and I cannot know what Larian will ultimately do in the end, but nothing you say will ever stop me from giving my honest feedback or attempting to steer the game in the best direction possible, but at the same time I 100% believe that everything we argue over should be an optional setting in the menu. I.e., there's absolutely no reason they can't include a 'barrel slider' that let's us decide for ourselves just how many explosives are in the game. The same can be said for every other homebrew rule, or anything people argue about.

Don't like camp supplies? Make it optional.
Don't like Hide as a bonus action? Make it optional.
Don't like Jump/Disengage bonus action? Make it optional.
Don't like cantrip surface effects? Make them optional.

Works for literally every single argument people have on these forums, and I fully support a granular, in-depth difficulty and options menu for everything, much like Kingmaker had, but maybe with even more detail.

[Patrick]

I would be happy with more options to try and cater for more people, let's hope that can be done in a way that doesn't compromise encounter design. Besides barrels, I think there are too many scrolls/special arrows etc lying about. That was fine in DOS1/2 - which I played and enjoyed - but doesn't fit 5E D&D.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

İlk olarak Patrick tarafından gönderildi:

I would be happy with more options to try and cater for more people, let's hope that can be done in a way that doesn't compromise encounter design. Besides barrels, I think there are too many scrolls/special arrows etc lying about. That was fine in DOS1/2 - which I played and enjoyed - but doesn't fit 5E D&D.

I absolutely agree - the amount of consumables in the game is absurd (I barely even use them) and the fact that all classes can use scrolls is also wrong.

The consumables (particularly grenades and bombs) can really water down classes to make them all feel the same (everyone's a 'Bombardier').

When combined with all the other stuff, particularly explosive barrels, it feels less like a high fantasy D&D setting and more like Metal Gear.

[Get Rekt M8™]

Barrels are to plentiful within encounter areas and it seems Larian refuses to reduce their amount to a "managable" amount so they just reduce how they can be interacted with.

But if they reduced their amount they become a resource and then using one has a cost.
And at that point they can let you pick them up, throw them, whatever.

And people that enjoy barrelmancy can use them to their hearts content and the rest can just ignore them. Same with scrolls Arrows etc.

And at the same time Using these items becomes more skillfull if you want to focus on them.

[GreyWarden506]

İlk olarak Nonaym tarafından gönderildi:

I've got 408.1 hours in an EA game that has between 21 and 24 hours of content. I've played BG3 since the release and I've been having a blast! I already feel like my money was well spent - good job (so far) Larian!
But the barrels though...
Every patch it seems like the fun barrels (water, oil, smoke powder, firewater) have less and less utility. In the early days there was a pick up cursor for these barrels, which turned into and attack cursor. Though you could still right click to pick them up.
The fun/utility was in being able to properly manipulate and throw these barrels. Any character, not simply the high strength ones, used to be able to do this.
Not so with Patch 5!
There is a particular point in EA where you character stumbles across a treasure trove of "fun barrels". I used to be able to stuff my PC's inventory with these barrels for later use. Now, that character wasn't able manipulate them, much less to stuff them in the inventory.
Also, barrels are no longer throw-able. Which takes the fun out of, well, the fun barrels.
Creatively using barrels to put out fires and slay dragons is part of the charm for me with games like BG3. I can understand toning down the environmental pyrotechnics. I know what it's like to have characters perched atop a wooden tower, with the entire location a molten field of pure destruction below. (Sweet-sweet D:OS2!)
But completely hamstringing the utility of barrels seems a bridge too far.
I do have a clear barrel-bias though.

I feel you! I rarely used barrels but even I noticed the change. I think everyone complaining about the realism is sucking some of the fun out of the game. I can easily imagine Gale doing a spell to make them lighter or whatever to make it believable. I hope Larian puts an option for people who dont really mind and like utilizing the items in the game.