Why Barrelmancy Needs To Die

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

It's complete, utter non-sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2G7Piq6N4

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by Funniesthobo:

Nah, I'll go and see for myself. I'm only being such a stickler about this after being called a liar so many times about the gith fight not being as difficult as people made it out to be (and the way I play the game in general) , so I finally broke down and recorded it for them. Now of course people are criticising it because people don't realise that their skill level at the game may not be as high as others.

I went back to check again to confirm for myself. What I discovered on a second look was ... interesting.

It's not the firewine ITSELF that explodes as such; it's actually the BARREL that does. Shoot a firewine barrel with any kind of damaging attack, even just a single humble arrow or crossbow bolt, and it flies apart violently as though it were hit squarely by a wrecking ball, scattering firewine over a rather wide area. Shoot it with a flame attack of some kind, and the BARREL again explodes violently, this time scattering flaming firewine over an equally wide area.

So I stand corrected on one particular point: the culprit is not high-explosive wine. It's explosive, uh ... barrels. The actual barrels themselves.

It's a mechanic that's not unfamiliar to people who've played "beat 'em up" games, and by itself, while rather silly and unrealistic, a barrel that explodes violently on contact from any blow whatsoever is really not THAT big of a deal. The problem arises from the combination of barrels that blow apart violently WITH flammable substances inside of them that get scattered over a wide area as a result, turning the whole thing into a kind of firebomb.

So again, I freely admit I was wrong to lay the blame on the wine (and oil). While it's true that firewine barrels explode violently when struck by fire and do damage over a pretty wide area, the culprit there is NOT primarily the wine. It's ... actually the barrels. The wine and oil are just victims of circumstance, guilty by association rather than by virtue of being particularly badly designed themselves.

Mind you, the whole thing is still problematic and still turns firewine barrels into, essentially, weapons. At the very least, NPC AI needs to be adjusted to recognize the threat such weapons may pose.

[Izunyami]

Originally posted by KittyHat:

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Do people really not know the difference between flammable and explosive?

I blame Hollywood. Hollywood movies (and American TV) taught us that everything that can even slightly catch fire always explodes violently if you shoot it or touch it with a flame or jostle it too much or sometimes even just give it a dirty look.

You and Panda have no right to act like you understand explosions or flammability better than anyone else.
Not that either of you two will ever see this.
It's ironic since I literally explained the science and showcased various instances of different oils, gases, and even alcohol (wine) exploding.
Why is this thread active AGAIN. None of the claims in this thread hold merit, this topic has been done to death. Panda and Kitty adamantly refuse to accept their world view as potentially wrong and anyone who starts to point out the flaws get blocked.
Can the mods just lock this thread already?

Then again (~looking back to see who said it~), I should consider who that "someone" was. I blocked that person for a reason, and I can see once again that it was not an unwise decision.

And more venom from someone who pretends that they've never been toxic before while blocking people who point out flaws in everything they say. I don't know why anyone bothers interacting with this person at this point. I didn't even say a single rude thing in this thread in days, but I'm still treated like dirt. Will Larian Steam forums ever not be toxic?

It's not the firewine ITSELF that explodes as such; it's actually the BARREL that does.

Just moving the goal posts and lying, again. As usual. Wow. 750 comments in this thread were about ''alcohol doesn't explode'' but now it's not about the alcohol, but the barrel itself exploding!!!!

Seriously. Lock this thread.

[Izunyami]

Originally posted by Pumis:

Originally posted by KittyHat:

You do realize that wooden barrels are not airtight and therefore are certainly not full of highly pressurized gases?



As I've said before, "suspension of disbelief" is not a blank check. If Merry and Pippin show up to save the day piloting Mobile Suit Gundams, or Samwise suddenly goes Super Saiyen in order to save Frodo, "it's fantasy" ain't gonna cut it. The implicit agreement between author and audience to suspend disbelief is not unconditional.

You do realize that it's magical world and you do not know how those barrels are made and what sort of wood is used?

Suspension of disbelief doesn't make sense in this context when were talking about world with totally alien substances and plants with magical properties.

Edit: In fact his is all semantics, the devs can just say that they are barrels filled with explosive magic. OR drinks enchanted with magical properties that will explode in certain conditions. None of the things you guys are now saying is justifying why they should be removed, in end of the day your argument would just be that they should just change name of the barrels.

Yea, we already tried that argument. I believe this was the line of thought that eventually made Kitty get super-mad, start yelling at us, and got me blocked by her/him. It won't work, they'll never accept your premise as even potentially valid.

We literally made all of those arguments actually lol; the "you don't know what kind of wood", the "it's a magical world with spaceships and gods and stuff", and the "this is just semantics" arguments.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by KittyHat:

Originally posted by Funniesthobo:

Nah, I'll go and see for myself. I'm only being such a stickler about this after being called a liar so many times about the gith fight not being as difficult as people made it out to be (and the way I play the game in general) , so I finally broke down and recorded it for them. Now of course people are criticising it because people don't realise that their skill level at the game may not be as high as others.

I went back to check again to confirm for myself. What I discovered on a second look was ... interesting.

It's not the firewine ITSELF that explodes as such; it's actually the BARREL that does. Shoot a firewine barrel with any kind of damaging attack, even just a single humble arrow or crossbow bolt, and it flies apart violently as though it were hit squarely by a wrecking ball, scattering firewine over a rather wide area. Shoot it with a flame attack of some kind, and the BARREL again explodes violently, this time scattering flaming firewine over an equally wide area.

So I stand corrected on one particular point: the culprit is not high-explosive wine. It's explosive, uh ... barrels. The actual barrels themselves.

It's a mechanic that's not unfamiliar to people who've played "beat 'em up" games, and by itself, while rather silly and unrealistic, a barrel that explodes violently on contact from any blow whatsoever is really not THAT big of a deal. The problem arises from the combination of barrels that blow apart violently WITH flammable substances inside of them that get scattered over a wide area as a result, turning the whole thing into a kind of firebomb.

So again, I freely admit I was wrong to lay the blame on the wine (and oil). While it's true that firewine barrels explode violently when struck by fire and do damage over a pretty wide area, the culprit there is NOT primarily the wine. It's ... actually the barrels. The wine and oil are just victims of circumstance, guilty by association rather than by virtue of being particularly badly designed themselves.

Mind you, the whole thing is still problematic and still turns firewine barrels into, essentially, weapons. At the very least, NPC AI needs to be adjusted to recognize the threat such weapons may pose.

I think you're reading way too deeply into this.

Firewine and oil barrels are game objects that can have different 'states' depending on what happens to them.

Hit them with a non-fire based attacks and do enough damage to destroy the barrel and it will break and cause a surface on the ground where it was standing. Add fire to that surface and the whole thing ignites.

Hit the barrel with a fire based attack before you break it, and it explodes like a bomb instead.

The game does not simulate the "wine" and the "barrel" independently, it just knows that certain barrels (oil and wine) either spread flammable surfaces or explode, depending upon how you interact with them.

[Izunyami]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Originally posted by KittyHat:

I went back to check again to confirm for myself. What I discovered on a second look was ... interesting.

It's not the firewine ITSELF that explodes as such; it's actually the BARREL that does. Shoot a firewine barrel with any kind of damaging attack, even just a single humble arrow or crossbow bolt, and it flies apart violently as though it were hit squarely by a wrecking ball, scattering firewine over a rather wide area. Shoot it with a flame attack of some kind, and the BARREL again explodes violently, this time scattering flaming firewine over an equally wide area.

So I stand corrected on one particular point: the culprit is not high-explosive wine. It's explosive, uh ... barrels. The actual barrels themselves.

It's a mechanic that's not unfamiliar to people who've played "beat 'em up" games, and by itself, while rather silly and unrealistic, a barrel that explodes violently on contact from any blow whatsoever is really not THAT big of a deal. The problem arises from the combination of barrels that blow apart violently WITH flammable substances inside of them that get scattered over a wide area as a result, turning the whole thing into a kind of firebomb.

So again, I freely admit I was wrong to lay the blame on the wine (and oil). While it's true that firewine barrels explode violently when struck by fire and do damage over a pretty wide area, the culprit there is NOT primarily the wine. It's ... actually the barrels. The wine and oil are just victims of circumstance, guilty by association rather than by virtue of being particularly badly designed themselves.

Mind you, the whole thing is still problematic and still turns firewine barrels into, essentially, weapons. At the very least, NPC AI needs to be adjusted to recognize the threat such weapons may pose.

I think you're reading way too deeply into this.

Firewine and oil barrels are game objects that can have different 'states' depending on what happens to them.

Hit them with a non-fire based attacks and do enough damage to destroy the barrel and it will break and cause a surface on the ground where it was standing. Add fire to that surface and the whole thing ignites.

Hit the barrel with a fire based attack before you break it, and it explodes like a bomb instead.

The game does not simulate the "wine" and the "barrel" independently, it just knows that certain barrels (oil and wine) either spread flammable surfaces or explode, depending upon how you interact with them.

Wow, Panda said something sensible in this thread. Exactly this; it's a video game, not a simulation of real life. There are limitations in how things work (effectively everything works on states, as Panda said) and gameplay takes precedence over absolute realism.

Video games will never match D&D's near limitless capacity for simulation, at least not for decades.

[TheBlueFox]

So now we've discovered that:
1. "explosive barrels" Don't actually explode
2. The barrel damage is roughly 1d4, with each barrel used adding 1-2 instances of damage depending on proximity and placement
3. Barrels are not included in 95% of encounters natively. nor are included in the same AREAS as encounters.
4. Yes there are barrels, yes they can be carried, yes they can be moved and positioned for little to no action cost.

So, not only are the barrels not a problem, the AMOUNT of barrels is not even a problem.

The only problem is that the AI will let you place them down without interrupting you, especially if you do it from stealth, in turn based mode, out of combat.

As you can do with ANY ITEM

[Izunyami]

@TheBlueFox and @Funniesthobo

Just to shut this damn thread up once and for all, I recorded firewine "exploding". One where I shot it with a firebolt. And one where I shot it with a bow THEN a firebolt. And have the damage it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK7H9CRW-1A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtbW1frkk5k

Oil barrels are exactly the same. Can this thread now die in shame? 760 comments for this. Over this.

[Wyrlish]

Originally posted by Izunyami:

@TheBlueFox and @Funniesthobo

Just to shut this damn thread up once and for all, I recorded firewine "exploding". One where I shot it with a firebolt. And one where I shot it with a bow THEN a firebolt. And have the damage it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK7H9CRW-1A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtbW1frkk5k

Oil barrels are exactly the same. Can this thread now die in shame?

BuT BaRrElS eXiSt AnD aRe A tHrEaT tO gAmE bAlAnCe!
tHeRe NeEds To Be 75% lEsS bArReLs FoR It To Be BaLaNcEd!

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by Izunyami:

Wow, Panda said something sensible in this thread. Exactly this; it's a video game, not a simulation of real life. There are limitations in how things work (effectively everything works on states, as Panda said) and gameplay takes precedence over absolute realism.

Video games will never match D&D's near limitless capacity for simulation, at least not for decades.

So basically, what I said a couple hundred posts ago. Excessive laser focusing on realism for the sake of realism in a game and setting steeped in heroic fantasy tropes where slightly implausible things might happen and where the real-life recipe for gunpowder doesn't work because a literal god that exists in the setting said they didn't want it to.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Originally posted by Izunyami:

Wow, Panda said something sensible in this thread. Exactly this; it's a video game, not a simulation of real life. There are limitations in how things work (effectively everything works on states, as Panda said) and gameplay takes precedence over absolute realism.

Video games will never match D&D's near limitless capacity for simulation, at least not for decades.

So basically, what I said a couple hundred posts ago. Excessive laser focusing on realism for the sake of realism in a game and setting steeped in heroic fantasy tropes where slightly implausible things might happen and where the real-life recipe for gunpowder doesn't work because a literal god that exists in the setting said they didn't want it to.

Except that realism vs. fantasy wasn't my point at all - I was talking about game objects and how the code handles them.

It doesn't 'think' about whether there's wine in a barrel - it's just an object with a label that says "wine barrel' which is attached to some behavioral code that runs when you do certain things to it.

There is no "wine" in the barrel before you hit it and it creates a "wine surface". Just as there's no "oil" in the "oil barrels" until you break them and spill it on the ground.

It isn't simulating fluids inside of a three dimensional object in other words. It's just an object that is tagged to have certain properties.

Doesn't mean I agree with it having those properties at all. Alcohol doesn't explode like that, and neither does oil. It is flammable, yes (and actually, liquid oil is hard to set aflame without some fumes, or a wick...know what happens when you toss a burning piece of paper into a puddle of oil? It just goes out. Gasoline is more refined and vapors form on it's surface, and even gasoline does not explode, or even ignite, when you shoot it with a gun).

It's all Hollywood and video game tropes. There's no such thing as an 'explosive barrel'. I mean, we got smokepowder barrels, and that's ok to a very limited extent (smokepowder is magical, it's rare, and it's highly regulated)....but no way in hell does regular oil or wine explode. It's debatable whether or not it's even flammable.

The ONLY reason there are explosive barrels in BG3 is because they are also in DoS games.

[Izunyami]

Originally posted by Pumis:

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

So now we've discovered that:
1. "explosive barrels" Don't actually explode
2. The barrel damage is roughly 1d4, with each barrel used adding 1-2 instances of damage depending on proximity and placement
3. Barrels are not included in 95% of encounters natively. nor are included in the same AREAS as encounters.
4. Yes there are barrels, yes they can be carried, yes they can be moved and positioned for little to no action cost.

So, not only are the barrels not a problem, the AMOUNT of barrels is not even a problem.

The only problem is that the AI will let you place them down without interrupting you, especially if you do it from stealth, in turn based mode, out of combat.

As you can do with ANY ITEM

Honestly ,not even that is a problem. IT takes hours to make setup like that in the video. Plus his video is old, not from latest patch. They did made barrels heavier so carrying them is going to be painful. If someone takes hours to collect all the barrels in the map just so he could have easier time in already easy encounter... Well go ahead. I'm pretty sure he deserves his win with that amount of effort alone. Especially when without barrel "cheese" you can just finish the encounter in 3-10min.

The video is supposedly of Patch 5 but it's hard to verify which version refers to which patch/hotfix, I can't find a list. But in the comments, he said it took him a long time. So probably countless hours. Let's not forget, these are goblins, who have maximum 17 hp and like 7 hp on the low end. It doesn't exactly take a lot to kill one.

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

The game does not simulate the "wine" and the "barrel" independently, it just knows that certain barrels (oil and wine) either spread flammable surfaces or explode, depending upon how you interact with them.

Yes, I know. My point is simply that, TECHNICALLY, the problem is the behavior of barrels (all barrels, everywhere, regardless of contents), and that the firewine/oil problem simply flows naturally from that. I assumed that would be a simple distinction easily understood.

Unfortunately, I forgot which discussion forum I was in:

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

So now we've discovered that:
1. "explosive barrels" Don't actually explode

~sigh~ Wow.

Uh, no. Incorrect. 100 percent incorrect. They DO explode. It's just it's the BARRELS THEMSELVES that explode, regardless of what they contain, which leads to an explosive firebomb when they contain anything flammable (e.g., firewine). You couldn't have been more wrong here if you were intentionally aiming for inaccuracy.

(And yes, I realize that the game doesn't make a distinction between barrel and contents, but my point is that anything that is a "barrel" behaves in the same way, which is that it explodes violently when struck in any manner. And if it's a "firewine barrel," that means firewine explodes everywhere, too, and if fire is also involved, then it explodes like a firebomb.)

2. The barrel damage is roughly 1d4, with each barrel used adding 1-2 instances of damage depending on proximity and placement

Over a wide area, with multiple barrels making a huge area with overlapping fields, yes. Like firebombs and not at all like barrels filled with wine set alight.

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by Pumis:

Literal footage showing that it's not exploding.

ex·plode
/ikˈsplōd/
Learn to pronounce
verb
1.
burst or shatter violently and noisily as a result of rapid combustion, decomposition, excessive internal pressure, or other process, typically scattering fragments widely.

"Burst or shatter violently and noisily ... as a result of ... other process."

In this case, they shatter and burst violently and noisily as a result of weird game physics and just being struck by anything, even a humble non-magical arrow (rather than the arrow just sticking in the barrel), scattering fragments widely. And if it's a firewine barrel, it also scatters firewine widely. If fire is involved, the firewine is also on fire, and now you have the exact behavior of a firebomb.

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by Pumis:

"In this case, they shatter and burst violently and noisily as a result of weird game physics"
Because objects that are destroyed in this game shatters. What do you expect? !00% realistic physic engine?

https://xkcd.com/1731/

[PirateMouse]

Can you just admit you were mistaken? You weren't trying to say "but it's a much smaller explosion than in DOS." You were trying to claim it literally wasn't an explosion at ALL. If you want to PIVOT to this other argument, fine, but at least have a modicum of intellectual honesty first?

And no, I am not demanding 100 percent accuracy at all. I'm just asking for barrels that don't behave like firebombs. That's not impossible given there have already been games that managed it just fine.