Fix Silence

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

I was just watching Casual Veteran Gamer fight the Harpies, and he used a scroll of Silence around a character that was Lured but it didn't end the Lured condition (which it should since that character can no longer hear the song).

Silence is currently broken. (While you're at it, make sure it stops casters from casting spells with verbal components).

[Linde]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

It's true, anti-magic field could just read:

No magic, or anything of a magical nature, works inside the field or can enter or penetrate the field, with the exception of those effects created by a deity or artifact.

And that would suffice, but the full description is about providing as many contextual clues as possible to answer any, "What about..." questions before they are asked. The more they provide these kinds of illustrative examples, the less likely someone is to get confused by them at a later date.

You are wrong. The full description is about listing every interaction within the rules, that is what the lead rules designer is saying in the previous quotes. Why do you insist ignoring the guy who literally wrote the rules, are you really that dense?

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

The charm effect of Luring Song falls off when the song ends. Silence "ends" the song for anyone inside the sphere of Silence, because Silence ends all sound, and Luring song is made out of sound.

The rules doesn't equate song ends and inability to hear the song.
Nor does the rules equate silence and end all sound. It implies it, yes. And that is why I agree that the interpretation you are presenting is valid, it just ain't the rules as written.
If silence was meant in the rules as written to end the effect it would have been stated explicitly. That is also why Jeremy Crawford (D&D Lead rules designer) says: "A rule in D&D does only what it says it does—nothing more. Beware of creating rules interactions that the rules themselves don't make."

In antimagic field the description says "..and even magic items become mundane." But they fully describe how those items interact with the field as well because that is what they do in the rules. There are examples of magic not covered in the full description of the spell that would be affected by antimagic field, but those specific cases are then stated explicitly when they occur, just look at Animated Armor.

D&D 5e is not intended to be interpreted, it is intended to be applied as written. RAW the only game mechanic effects of silence are thunder damage immunity, deafened condition, and inability to cast spells with a verbal component.

Luring song isn't a spell. It is a magical action, and thus not covered by silence spell effects. If it was intended to be affected by silence beyond the way already explicitly stated in the description, then that would have been added explicitly as well. Since Luring song doesn't explicitly say that silence ends the song, then it doesn't in rules as written.
Since Jeremy Crawford says as he says, then RAW is RAI and your interpretation goes against both.

I have also said that even though your interpretation goes against RAW and RAI, which I have clearly shown that it does, then it is still the interpretation that I prefer.

You are saying that your interpretation is in no way an interpretation it is just RAW and RAI. That is objectively wrong.

Since you chose not to elaborate on how you became be a greater authority on the rules than the guy who wrote them, I can only assume you concede that you haven't, and therefore plan to adhere to his advice regarding how to read the rules. So you must be meaning to change your stance on what is RAW and RAI in D&D 5e rules and your previous two posts were just brain farts on your part before coming to your senses.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

You are wrong. My interpretation is both RAW and RAI. Jeremy Crawford, and the very quote you keep bringing up, agree with me.

[N/A]

Originally posted by Linde:

Can you see how silence is only meant to create immunity to thunder damage, deafen creatures inside the effect and prevent spells with a verbal component from being cast, but not actually in rules terms beyond the flavor of it, literally stop sound?

I went a week without laughing until I saw this
You've made my day just that much brighter. God bless

[Linde]

Originally posted by N/A:

Originally posted by Linde:

Can you see how silence is only meant to create immunity to thunder damage, deafen creatures inside the effect and prevent spells with a verbal component from being cast, but not actually in rules terms beyond the flavor of it, literally stop sound?

I went a week without laughing until I saw this
You've made my day just that much brighter. God bless

You're welcome ^_^ Always glad to brighten peoples days.

I just meant that in rules as written it doesn't stop sound beyond the 3 effects described as there are no rules on how sound travel or can be stopped, barring those 3 effects explicitly stated in the spell description. How the sound is actually stopped is interpretation left up to the GM and players, not RAW. I agree with the interpretation presented by Panda as I've said many times. I just don't agree that it is RAW. RAW is what the rules cover, not logical deductions based on descriptions. That would be RAI, and I don't know what exactly goes on in the head of Jeremy Crawford, so I can conceivably concede on what is RAI when my main argument is my perception of his view of RAI. But in no way can panda's interpretation be RAW as his interpretation is not what is written in the rules.

[Linde]

Originally posted by N/A:

I don't even know how this spans so many posts, I know we're not done with covid yet but don't the people here have anything better to do?

On the 8th when the pre-patch announcement comes I will definitely have something better to do. ^_^

[Jack Hawklight]

It is a sphere of silence, I would expect it to be silent within the sphere. Don't really care what the RAW or anything else says. The fact is making it a sphere with no sound in it makes sense... as it is a sphere of silence. The reason why the harpies song shouldn't work in the sphere of silence, is because it is silent.

The reason it should be implemented into the game as stopping all sound is... it is a sphere of silence. Also, because it is more fun and would at more strategic depth to both the sphere and by extension the game itself. It would allow people to be more creative with how they use the spell.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Linde:

Originally posted by N/A:

I went a week without laughing until I saw this
You've made my day just that much brighter. God bless

You're welcome ^_^ Always glad to brighten peoples days.

I just meant that in rules as written it doesn't stop sound beyond the 3 effects described as there are no rules on how sound travel or can be stopped, barring those 3 effects explicitly stated in the spell description. How the sound is actually stopped is interpretation left up to the GM and players, not RAW. I agree with the interpretation presented by Panda as I've said many times. I just don't agree that it is RAW. RAW is what the rules cover, not logical deductions based on descriptions. That would be RAI, and I don't know what exactly goes on in the head of Jeremy Crawford, so I can conceivably concede on what is RAI when my main argument is my perception of his view of RAI. But in no way can panda's interpretation be RAW as his interpretation is not what is written in the rules.

That is false.

D&D requires you to use a certain level of common sense about the world. It tends to work just like the real world, except where explicitly noted that it doesn't, and this usually has to do with magic.

In other words, gravity is typically 1g everywhere (except where explicitly noted), water always seeks it's lowest point (except where explicitly noted), light always reflects at a 45 degree angle, sunlight will give you a sunburn if exposed to it too long, steel is made of iron and carbon, organic carcasses will rot if not preserved or frozen, and...sound propagates through a medium such as the atmosphere.

These common sense assumptions are often essential to understanding the game world and how other things works. For example, Silence. When Silence says that it ends ALL sound within the sphere and that no sound can enter the sphere from outside, that's what it does. And that includes magical sounds as well. It is a sound proof sphere (if you could somehow hollow out another sphere inside the Silence sphere where sound worked again, you'd have a perfect recording studio).

RAW doesn't have to tell you that gravity works for gravity to work. It doesn't have to tell you that a compass needle points north. It doesn't have to tell you that clouds are created by the evaporation of bodies of water. All of these things happen exactly as they would in the real world, except where it's explicitly stated to be otherwise.

You're still wrong.

Silence stops all sound within it's sphere magical or otherwise and those who cannot hear the Luring Song cannot be affected by it. That's RAW.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Funniesthobo:

It is a sphere of silence, I would expect it to be silent within the sphere. Don't really care what the RAW or anything else says. The fact is making it a sphere with no sound in it makes sense... as it is a sphere of silence. The reason why the harpies song shouldn't work in the sphere of silence, is because it is silent.

I think this is the one thing everybody agrees on - Linde and I are just arguing over the correct RAW interpretation - I say that the description of both these effects (Silence and Luring Song) is already sufficient to interpret it the way I have and Linde believes that if a person is charmed before Silence is cast that the wording in Luring Song supports that character remains charmed until the harpy stops singing. In other words, you can't cast Silence to remove the effect on a character after the fact. I think this is an incorrect interpretation that confuses the phrase "the song ends" (which naturally occurs if someone can no longer hear it) with "the harpy stops singing" (which is just an illustrative example of one way in which the song might end).

[Jack Hawklight]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

I think this is the one thing everybody agrees on - Linde and I are just arguing over the correct RAW interpretation - I say that the description of both these effects (Silence and Luring Song) is already sufficient to interpret it the way I have and Linde believes that if a person is charmed before Silence is cast that the wording in Luring Song supports that character remains charmed until the harpy stops singing. In other words, you can't cast Silence to remove the effect on a character after the fact. I think this is an incorrect interpretation that confuses the phrase "the song ends" (which naturally occurs if someone can no longer hear it) with "the harpy stops singing" (which is just an illustrative example of one way in which the song might end.

That is basically what I was saying. If they can't hear the song, because they are in a sphere of silence, then the effect ends. Even if it was put on them before entering the sphere. If they can't hear the song, it has no effect in a sphere of silence. The fact that the harpy's song is magical doesn't matter - the sphere is magical as well.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Linde's confusion about this hinges upon one thing:

Conflating "the song ends" with "the harpy stops singing".

Luring Song first states that the effects end when the song ends. So far, nothing too controversial.

It then goes on to describe two ways in which it could end. One, the harpy could stop singing by not using it's bonus action to continue singing on subsequent rounds. Or, the harpy could be incapacitated at which point it is no longer capable of singing. Both cases are fairly obvious, and to me this is just pointing out to readers that if the music stops the effect stops.

Linde, however, has chosen to interpret this as an itemized list of the only possible ways in which the song can end. In other words, because the spell description states that the song can end in those ways, specifically, then that must mean these are the only ways the song can end - which would then lead one to the conclusion that if charmed prior to the casting of Silence then the charm effect remains after Silence is cast as long as the harpy continues to sing, because Luring Song hasn't met either of the two conditions explicitly stated to end the song - incapacitation or voluntary cessation by the harpy.

And I've been arguing that this isn't even a RAW interpretation because those two examples are nothing but contextual clues or illustrative examples. D&D often does this in their spell/ability descriptions, where they actually provide more than is strictly necessary for a literal interpretation. Linde provided one such example with Anti-magic Shell above, where a much simpler description would suffice to describe the entirety of the spell logically, but there they also provided many such illustrative examples of what the spell does or does not do. These are not meant to be exhaustive laundry lists of the only ways in which the spell works (which would be impossible to fit in a book since the possibilities for most spells are incredibly large), but just examples that give the reader a clearer idea of how it works.

And so in the case of Luring Song and Silence, the only points that are relevant are that the charm ends when the song ends, and silence ends all sound inside it's sphere. Since the song is made of sound (this is one of those assumptions about basic physics that you just have to understand, as I was explaining to Linde above - just as gravity is 1g unless otherwise noted, or light bends at 45 degrees, etc.) the sphere of Silence "ends" it at it's boundary since no sound can enter. Silence effectively "ends the song" by destroying the sound, which the song is composed of.

Linde makes the mistake of equating "the song" as an object with "the harpy singing". I have separated the two, making "the song" a separate entity - once it's been sung - from the harpy herself. All I mean by that is that I view the song as the sound waves that it is composed of. The harpy generates this song by singing it of course. The song cannot exist until the harpy sings it. It comes into being through the ability called Luring Song that the harpy must use on it's turn. But once it has, "the song" becomes an independent entity unto itself, which is just to say that "the song" is the sounds of which it is composed and that's why silence causes the charm effect to fall off of a character because it brings an end to ALL sound. immediately.

Linde won't accept this because "the song ends" can ONLY mean "the harpy stops singing" to him. He cannot accept "the song" as something that exists independently of the harpy because the ability doesn't explicitly offer a course on the physics of sound wave propagation.

[Jack Hawklight]

I realise what is going on here perfectly. I think I can write it more simply.

It is a sphere of silence. It is silent in the sphere. So if a character enters it while under luring song it is immediately broken, because the song can no longer be heard. The character is in a sphere of silence. Even if the song is made of waves, which they are in the real world, the waves would not be heard by the ears while in the sphere of silence. They would just bounce off. So character enters the sphere, luring song's effect is broken, as it is silent.

Larian should be giving us as many options as possible for every tool at our disposal. It will make a better game and breed more creativity with how people approach encounters.

[Linde]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

D&D requires you to use a certain level of common sense about the world. It tends to work just like the real world, except where explicitly noted that it doesn't, and this usually has to do with magic.

I would say that HP are more common than magic. HP doesn't work as peoples health work in the real world. People in D&D are generally 100% effective until they are unconscious or dying. Thus common sense as in relation to the real world must be parked at the front door when entering the realm of D&D.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

In other words, gravity is typically 1g everywhere (except where explicitly noted), water always seeks it's lowest point (except where explicitly noted), light always reflects at a 45 degree angle, sunlight will give you a sunburn if exposed to it too long, steel is made of iron and carbon, organic carcasses will rot if not preserved or frozen, and...sound propagates through a medium such as the atmosphere.

That is an interpretation, and if it facilitate fun around the table, then by all means use that in your games, that is not my point of view.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

These common sense assumptions are often essential to understanding the game world and how other things works. For example, Silence. When Silence says that it ends ALL sound within the sphere and that no sound can enter the sphere from outside, that's what it does. And that includes magical sounds as well. It is a sound proof sphere (if you could somehow hollow out another sphere inside the Silence sphere where sound worked again, you'd have a perfect recording studio).

That is a valid interpretation of silence. Equally valid would be to say that the illusion of sound is not sound at all, and thus if illusion is used as the medium to deliver sound, then it would make itself heard through the sphere. And if players and GM had fun with that interpretation, then that would be entirely up to them to play with it.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

RAW doesn't have to tell you that gravity works for gravity to work. It doesn't have to tell you that a compass needle points north. It doesn't have to tell you that clouds are created by the evaporation of bodies of water. All of these things happen exactly as they would in the real world, except where it's explicitly stated to be otherwise.

Take chain devil for example. As a reaction it is able to create the illusion of looking like a lost loved one or another unnerving character that force the target to make a will save or be frightened. When subjected to RAW as well as Sage Advice Compendiums key to determine if an effect is magical, the illusion effect is determined to be natural.

Unnerving Mask. When a creature the devil can see starts its turn within 30 feet of the devil, the devil can create the illusion that it looks like one of the creature's departed loved ones or bitter enemies. If the creature can see the devil, it must succeed on a DC 14 Wisdom saving throw or be frightened until the end of its turn.

Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:
•Is it a magic item?
•Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
•Is it a spell attack?
•Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
•Does its description say it’s magical?If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.

Thus, naturally through sight (only enhanced by darkvision) or by Telepathy (that is one way communication and thus can't transmit back to the devil) the devil is able to determine who your dead loved ones or bitter rivals are. And is able to naturally create the illusion of looking like that person. So I would argue that in RAW light works in a different way in the D&D universe than in the real world as it can be naturally manipulated in ways that our light can't.
But that is okay because the world is inherently magic and not mundane and bound to normal laws of physics as our world is.

And that would be my interpretation instead of defaulting to natural laws from the real world that make no sense for me in the context of the fantasy setting.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Silence stops all sound within it's sphere magical or otherwise and those who cannot hear the Luring Song cannot be affected by it. That's RAW.

Luring song still only require sound to be heard for the initial save. after that it continues until the song ends.


Now.... You are of the opinion that the song ends for the person in question if they cannot hear it. I am of the opinion that the song continues regardless of ability to hear it because sound was only the initiating factor, magic now has its hold and the act of continued singing is enough to sustain the effect.

Take witch bolt for example. It is a verbal component spell that allows you to use an action on subsequent turns to deal automatic damage to the target.

I am of the opinion that silence RAW, would not hinder witch bolt after it has initially been cast, as the spell grants an option to spend an action to continue an effect of the spell, even though the spell has a verbal component, that component is only required in the casting, not the continuation.

A variation of the same apply to the song, because even though the song is a song and thus verbal, the action to continue the song does not contain a requirement for the song to be heard.

What happens if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it.. Does it still make a sound?
I would argue that it does. The sound doesn't care if it is heard or not, it is still a sound. And as the falling tree make a sound unobserved, so does the song. Is there regardless of being heard.

If at noon you go into a blinded room and go to sleep until the following day. Has the day then ended at noon?
I argue no. You are just spending the day in bed sleeping, you may perceive the day as having ended early, but that is an illusion, the day continue to follow its normal path and so does the song.

So the song ends when it is ended, not when it goes unheard.

[Jack Hawklight]

Originally posted by Linde:

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

D&D requires you to use a certain level of common sense about the world. It tends to work just like the real world, except where explicitly noted that it doesn't, and this usually has to do with magic.

I would say that HP are more common than magic. HP doesn't work as peoples health work in the real world. People in D&D are generally 100% effective until they are unconscious or dying. Thus common sense as in relation to the real world must be parked at the front door when entering the realm of D&D.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

In other words, gravity is typically 1g everywhere (except where explicitly noted), water always seeks it's lowest point (except where explicitly noted), light always reflects at a 45 degree angle, sunlight will give you a sunburn if exposed to it too long, steel is made of iron and carbon, organic carcasses will rot if not preserved or frozen, and...sound propagates through a medium such as the atmosphere.

That is an interpretation, and if it facilitate fun around the table, then by all means use that in your games, that is not my point of view.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

These common sense assumptions are often essential to understanding the game world and how other things works. For example, Silence. When Silence says that it ends ALL sound within the sphere and that no sound can enter the sphere from outside, that's what it does. And that includes magical sounds as well. It is a sound proof sphere (if you could somehow hollow out another sphere inside the Silence sphere where sound worked again, you'd have a perfect recording studio).

That is a valid interpretation of silence. Equally valid would be to say that the illusion of sound is not sound at all, and thus if illusion is used as the medium to deliver sound, then it would make itself heard through the sphere. And if players and GM had fun with that interpretation, then that would be entirely up to them to play with it.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

RAW doesn't have to tell you that gravity works for gravity to work. It doesn't have to tell you that a compass needle points north. It doesn't have to tell you that clouds are created by the evaporation of bodies of water. All of these things happen exactly as they would in the real world, except where it's explicitly stated to be otherwise.

Take chain devil for example. As a reaction it is able to create the illusion of looking like a lost loved one or another unnerving character that force the target to make a will save or be frightened. When subjected to RAW as well as Sage Advice Compendiums key to determine if an effect is magical, the illusion effect is determined to be natural.

Unnerving Mask. When a creature the devil can see starts its turn within 30 feet of the devil, the devil can create the illusion that it looks like one of the creature's departed loved ones or bitter enemies. If the creature can see the devil, it must succeed on a DC 14 Wisdom saving throw or be frightened until the end of its turn.

Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:
•Is it a magic item?
•Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
•Is it a spell attack?
•Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
•Does its description say it’s magical?If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.

Thus, naturally through sight (only enhanced by darkvision) or by Telepathy (that is one way communication and thus can't transmit back to the devil) the devil is able to determine who your dead loved ones or bitter rivals are. And is able to naturally create the illusion of looking like that person. So I would argue that in RAW light works in a different way in the D&D universe than in the real world as it can be naturally manipulated in ways that our light can't.
But that is okay because the world is inherently magic and not mundane and bound to normal laws of physics as our world is.

And that would be my interpretation instead of defaulting to natural laws from the real world that make no sense for me in the context of the fantasy setting.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Silence stops all sound within it's sphere magical or otherwise and those who cannot hear the Luring Song cannot be affected by it. That's RAW.

Luring song still only require sound to be heard for the initial save. after that it continues until the song ends.


Now.... You are of the opinion that the song ends for the person in question if they cannot hear it. I am of the opinion that the song continues regardless of ability to hear it because sound was only the initiating factor, magic now has its hold and the act of continued singing is enough to sustain the effect.

Take witch bolt for example. It is a verbal component spell that allows you to use an action on subsequent turns to deal automatic damage to the target.

I am of the opinion that silence RAW, would not hinder witch bolt after it has initially been cast, as the spell grants an option to spend an action to continue an effect of the spell, even though the spell has a verbal component, that component is only required in the casting, not the continuation.

A variation of the same apply to the song, because even though the song is a song and thus verbal, the action to continue the song does not contain a requirement for the song to be heard.

What happens if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it.. Does it still make a sound?
I would argue that it does. The sound doesn't care if it is heard or not, it is still a sound. And as the falling tree make a sound unobserved, so does the song. Is there regardless of being heard.

If at noon you go into a blinded room and go to sleep until the following day. Has the day then ended at noon?
I argue no. You are just spending the day in bed sleeping, you may perceive the day as having ended early, but that is an illusion, the day continue to follow its normal path and so does the song.

So the song ends when it is ended, not when it goes unheard.

You are really overthinking this. The harpy sings a song. There is a sphere of silence. Character walks into sphere of silence while lured. They can no longer hear the song. Character comes to their senses immediately. Don't care about RAW don't care about RAI whatever the hell that is. This is a computer game, not table top. So why should silence do things like that? One, it makes bloody sense. Two, it is more fun and provides more strategic options for creative players. That is it. No walls of text required.

[Linde]

But we agree about the end goal here. Silence need to be usable where it make contextual sense, such as ending the harpy song. Because the song shouldn't have effect when it goes unheard.

On a side note, I tried to cast silence covering the boy before going down to him. Silence was very effective at disrupting the trigger for the video sequence with the boy and conversation with him, but not much else. And that is just plain wrong. Luring song also has an alternative implementation. It seems to be concentration duration rather than being dependent on later bonus actions, so it can be disrupted by damaging the harpy, but on the other hand you don't get immunity to the effect from the specific harpy on successful saves and saves doesn't seem to end the effect. Successful saves just gives you a round where you can choose your actions before being forced to roll a new save. So it just works in an entirely different way than written.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Witch Bolt has a completely different set of conditions, it isn't even applicable in this argument.

Verbal components apply to the casting of the spell. If the caster were standing inside a sphere of Silence, she wouldn't be able to cast Witch Bolt, but if she had cast it on a target and then that target cast Silence on her, the Witch Bolt is not disrupted because nowhere does it say that the Witch Bolt is a sound based attack or requires the target to be able to hear it (and it does Lightning damage, not Thunder). So really not applicable to this discussion at all. The spell ends when you use an action to do anything other than damage you target with Witch Bolt, the target moves outside the range of Witch Bolt, or you break your concentration.

And again, I'm going to point out the reason you are wrong, the very center of this entire argument: "the song" and "the harpy singing" are NOT the same thing. Luring Song states that the effects of the charm end when the song ends. "The song ends" means something different depending upon what you believe "the song" to be in the first place. You clearly believe that "the song" is equivalent to "the harpy singing". I do not. The harpy singing merely produces the song, but "the song" itself is the sound of which it is composed of. So when that sound no longer exists, neither does "the song". Thus when Silence causes all sounds to cease, it has "ended" the song.

No amount of arguing is going to convince me that "the song" is equivalent to "the harpy singing" because I will always view this as simply the action the harpy uses to produce "the song" itself. Once produced the song is an independent entity from the harpy. Once those sound waves are in the air they are not dependent upon the harpy or anything the harpy does (or doesn't do) to exist. Of course, only the harpy can continue to make them exist on subsequent turns, but the point is that the sound of which "the song" is composed of is physically independent of the harpy.

And because of this, when "the song" encounters a sphere of Silence, it ends.

Case closed.