'Fire Bolt' cantrip has too low damage

[zeeb]

It currently has 1d6, but should have 1d10.
Source: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Fire%20Bolt

You hurl a mote of fire at a creature or object within range. Make a ranged spell Attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 fire damage. A flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being worn or carried.

This spell's damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th Level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).

[zeeb]

Messaggio originale di Sever:

This is a type of change that I wish Larian would not make. There is no reason that the behavior of this spell needed to be changed. As much as possible, I would prefer that Larian leave the ruleset intact.

Agreed.

[ZeTachyonRailgun]

I actually like it.
Its effectively 1d6+1d4, which is better than a 1d10 anyway. And making a fire surface is sort of neat.
I don't mind the change because it makes an otherwise extremely boring cantrip interesting and keeps effectively the same damage.

[zeeb]

The problem is that it isn't better. Because the "bonus" 1d4 doesn't increase with level.
If it did then maybe.

At max level you will get 4d6+1d4 instead of 4d10.
That's a strong nerf.

[zeeb]

I don't really play D&D, but when a game is suppose to mimic D&D then it should.

Fire Bolt is currently a wasted pick imo, I only pick it up through scrolls if I have money leftover that I don't need for anything else. But since you have Gale as a companion I guess you don't play Wizard.

I don't really see any point in giving people, who don't main the class and suffer from the nerfs on their own character, a vote on the subject.

It would be the same as me arguing for a Bard nerf even if I never touch the class.
(I know Bard isn't implemented yet but you get the point)

[Dani]

In all honesty I think the best approach would be to have two entirely different cantrips, Fire Bolt (Classic) and Flame Burst (Larion). Former, 1d10, doesn't affect the environment unless targeting it directly. The latter, 1d6, influences the environment. Then there's one for classic players, one for people who want the added dot/surface fire.

Then everyone wins.

[Hogs Fattman]

Messaggio originale di zeeb:

I don't really play D&D, but when a game is suppose to mimic D&D then it should.

Fire Bolt is currently a wasted pick imo, I only pick it up through scrolls if I have money leftover that I don't need for anything else. But since you have Gale as a companion I guess you don't play Wizard.

I don't really see any point in giving people, who don't main the class and suffer from the nerfs on their own character, a vote on the subject.

It would be the same as me arguing for a Bard nerf even if I never touch the class.
(I know Bard isn't implemented yet but you get the point)

Well, I'm not playing a wizard so my opinion might be invalid given that logic, but I do agree that the spell should be changed back to 1d10 and have the fire puddle element removed.

But I don't think the fire creation is necessarily bad, just make a separate cantrip for it. My first thought was, if we want to stick to existing D&D spells, add create bonfire. It does slightly more damage, but has a similar effect. In PnP it is generally seen as a lackluster cantrip, because...well, it is, but with BG3 placing a greater emphasis on creating elements, I think it fits in nicely, plus the fire puddle damage is much better than the PNP version, which IIRC, only triggers again if they end their turn in the bonfire.

Fire bolt was always intended to be the "just damage" spell, but that higher damage always came at cost of not having a secondary effect like all the other cantrips.

[zeeb]

Messaggio originale di Dani, 3D Modeler:

In all honesty I think the best approach would be to have two entirely different cantrips, Fire Bolt (Classic) and Flame Burst (Larion). Former, 1d10, doesn't affect the environment unless targeting it directly. The latter, 1d6, influences the environment. Then there's one for classic players, one for people who want the added dot/surface fire.

Then everyone wins.

Or just let it keep the surface modifier just like 'Ray of Frost' has one but change it to the correct value of 1d10, the value it should have. 'Ray of Frost' has 1d8 but that is because it also slows down the target and 'Chill Touch' prevents healing.

It's not a matter of opinion, either they stay true to the course they set themselves upon or they don't. But if they don't they can't claim to represent D&D 5e.
Do it right or not at all, that's what I believe.

Now if it were mechanics that can't be implemented in the game, then sure, I wouldn't argue for a second. But changing a 6 to a 10 is more than possible.

[Sniperfox47]

Messaggio originale di zeeb:

The only reason I noticed it was because I was considering between picking Chill Touch or Fire Bolt, but Chill Touch seemed to triumph Fire Bolt, so when I looked it up I noticed it had 1d6 ingame when it officially has 1d10.

Doesn't Fire Bolt make a dot in D&D? Because if so then there is no reason to lower the damage imo.

In accordance to the fire puddle it creates I guess that's true, however:

This spell’s damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).

4d10 vs 4d6 is a huge difference.

As far as I know, puddles does not increase in damage and instead have a static value.
This will make the cantrip incredibly ass later on in the game.

Fire Bolt's lowest damage will be 4(10*) and highest 24(40*), its damage is reduced around half.
That's a big nerf, with or without puddles. (* = Official Fire Bolt)

Didn't they already say they only expect the game to progress to about level 10? So you're only going to see the 2d10 (avg 11) vs 2d6 (avg 7) + an AOE DOT of 1d4 (avg 2.5) for a total average 9.5 to the main target. They're roughly the same, with the BG3 version being better in tightly packed groups and a couple damage worse against single targets (though also more reliable because more dice).

[zeeb]

Max level 10? That's news to me.
In any case, it is still nerfed.

All they have to do is keeping its damage but still add the elemental mechanics to it, the same way the did with 'Ray of Frost'.

'Fire Bolt' should do higher damage, while 'Ray of Frost' should slow enemies and 'Chill Touch' should negate healing. That's why 'Fire Bolt' had 1d10.
There is no good reason to remove 4 damage from it, they can just have it affect the surroundings while still having its original properties.

Besides:

A flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being worn or carried.

That's taken straight out of the description of 'Fire Bolt'.
So the mechanics are already in the spell.
It works as intended in the game, except the damage is off by 4, which is significant.
Fire is also the most resisted element in D&D. (As far as I know)

It's just a nerf, when it doesn't need to be nerfed.
It might even be a typo in the spell's file, wouldn't surprise me.
Since there are lots of other typos currently in the game that surely will be taken care of.

But this thread is to get their attention redirected towards it, it's after all a bug report.
If they fix it, then nice. If not, then of course I'll get a little disappointed. But I'll just mod it later.

[Sniperfox47]

Messaggio originale di zeeb:

Max level 10? That's news to me.
In any case, it is still nerfed.

From the Reddit AMA:
"Can you say anything about the level cap?

NickP: We’re planning to cover levels 1 through 10 in full release."

And how is it doing pretty much the same damage, with an added DOT, and an AOE a nerf? Over time it literally does more damage than it used to unless the enemy burns an action extinguishing themselves. And does this to multiple foes... If not an upgrade it's at the very worst a sidegrade... >.>

Messaggio originale di zeeb:

All they have to do is keeping its damage but still add the elemental mechanics to it, the same way the did with 'Ray of Frost'.

'Fire Bolt' should do higher damage, while 'Ray of Frost' should slow enemies and 'Chill Touch' should negate healing. That's why 'Fire Bolt' had 1d10.
There is no good reason to remove 4 damage from it, they can just have it affect the surroundings while still having its original properties.

Umm What? It *DOES* do more damage than Ray of Frost... 1d6+1d4 > 1d8... The minimum is higher (2 vs 1) the maximum is higher (10 vs 8) and the average is higher (6 vs 4.5), and that's *before the DOT*. Hell the new version does even more damage than it does in standard 5e... 1d6+1d4 is better than 1d10... minimum 2 vs minimum 1, maximum 10 which is the same, average 6 vs average 5.5, and it has better consistency since it has more dice...

What the frick are you smoking that it's a nerf?

Messaggio originale di zeeb:

Besides:

A flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being worn or carried.

That's taken straight out of the description of 'Fire Bolt'.
So the mechanics are already in the spell.
It works as intended in the game, except the damage is off by 4, which is significant.

It's just a nerf, when it doesn't need to be nerfed.
It might even be a typo in the spell's file, wouldn't surprise me.
Since there are lots of other typos currently in the game that surely will be taken care of

"A flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being worn or carried." Hit by the spell is the key part. It ignites objects if you specifically shoot them and hit them. And only if *not* being worn which means no DOT to the person you hit since their items are worn and don't ignite...

What are you even talking about here? In 5e the spell does not create a 5 ft spread of flame where the person is standing, which is what this spell does.

Messaggio originale di zeeb:

But this thread is to get their attention redirected towards it, it's after all a bug report.
If they fix it, then nice. If not, then of course I'll get a little disappointed. But I'll just mod it later.

[zeeb]

Make a ranged spell Attack against the target. On a hit, it takes 1d8 cold damage, and its speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn.

Source: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Ray%20of%20Frost

Ray of Frost doesn't officially create a puddle either, but it does in-game.
So it's unbalanced, because they both had that added while 'Fire Blast' had 4 points removed.

Ice makes you slip, fire does damage. Balanced.
First is utility, second is damage.

All other spells in the game seems to be official, except 'Fire Blast'.
Looks like a bug (typo), unless you have a source where they say they nerfed it intentionally.

[Dani]

Messaggio originale di zeeb:

Make a ranged spell Attack against the target. On a hit, it takes 1d8 cold damage, and its speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn.

Source: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Ray%20of%20Frost

Ray of Frost doesn't officially create a puddle either, but it does in-game.
So it's unbalanced, because they both had that added while 'Fire Blast' had 4 points removed.

Ice makes you slip, fire does damage. Balance.

All other spells in the game seems to be official, except 'Fire Blast'.
Looks like a typo, unless you have a source where they say they nerfed it intentionally.

'Fire Blast' was simply my suggested second cantrip to act the way Fire Bolt does now.

As I mentioned, Fire Bolt could be returned to its PnP format (1d10 damage on impact, nothing else, ignite objects not carried), and 'Fire Blast' can be what Fire Bolt is now, a second cantrip with 1d6 fire damage that creates an area of fire. Then if someone wants 2d10 damage at level 5+, they can have that, or they can have 2d6+1d4+ignite fire damage instead at level 5+. They can even have both if they want to be a true pyromancer.

Fire Bolt as it is will outperform standard Fire Bolt, but as it levels it will be more of a tactical tool creating fields of fire. A standard Fire Bolt could exist to deal 1d10 damage to a single target with no additional effects, since this seems to be what you want.

[Sniperfox47]

Messaggio originale di zeeb:

Make a ranged spell Attack against the target. On a hit, it takes 1d8 cold damage, and its speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn.

Source: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Ray%20of%20Frost

Ray of Frost doesn't officially create a puddle either, but it does in-game.
So it's unbalanced, because they both had that added while 'Fire Blast' had 4 points removed.

Ice makes you slip, fire does damage. Balance.

All other spells in the game seems to be official, except 'Fire Blast'.
Looks like a typo, unless you have a source where they say they nerfed it intentionally.

Ray of frosts puddle doesn't do sustained damage over time or harm action economy though.. It just might make you prone, which can be pretty quickly overcome by just... standing up.

Also Firebolt in this game does 1d6+1d4 damage, why do you keep saying it just does 1d6? It does 1d6+1d4, which is better than 1d10...

[zeeb]

Messaggio originale di Dani, 3D Modeler:

'Fire Blast' was simply my suggested second cantrip to act the way Fire Bolt does now.

That was a typo on my part, I ment 'Fire Bolt' and was replying to Sniperfox47.
My bad.

[zeeb]

Messaggio originale di Sniperfox47:

Also Firebolt in this game does 1d6+1d4 damage, why do you keep saying it just does 1d6? It does 1d6+1d4, which is better than 1d10..

Because the +1d4 doesn't scale with level.
It falls behind on the very first cantrip upgrade.