Let's have opinions on bard subclasses

[craig234]

Not the basic 'what are they', but a bit more detailed pros and cons.

[Angel]

swords bard best

[craig234]

Angel původně napsal:

swords bard best

OK, but it's not a vote, it's a discussion.

[Omegatherion]

Swords Bard is broken because:

Ranged Flourishes (who added those? Seriously. As if Larian doesn't care about balancing)

Due to that it is the best class to abuse Arcane Acuity/Band of Mystic Scoundrel synergies and break the game. You don't even have to go into melee range and can still in almost every fight in just 1 turn.
As long as you use Command: Grovel being in melee range is not a bad thing though, as enemies can't touch you anyways.

I'm not even starting to talk about SSB at this point.

That being said, it is still fun. But only really for one run and then it gets boring.

[Angel]

craig234 původně napsal:

Angel původně napsal:

swords bard best

OK, but it's not a vote, it's a discussion.

ok

swords bard still best

[LordOfTheBread]

I already have, did not wat for you to have opinions.

[FloatingToadThing]

College of Lore's biggest selling point is the earlier access to magical secrets at level 6, which coincides nicely with having access to some strong level 3 spells like haste, counterspell, fireball, spirit guardians etc.

Both College of Valour and College of Swords turn bards into a martial character, both giving extra attack at level 6. Normally I would prefer Valour bard because of its level 14 feature, but here the cap is 12. Taking into account only the features you'll have access to, I think Swords is actually the best bard subclass in bg3.

Both give medium armour proficiency and an alternate way to use bardic inspiration. But while Valour lets inspiration boost AC, saves and weapon damage, Swords lets you use inspirations to fuel flourishes, turning you into a sort of pseudo-battlemaster. On top of that you can take duelling or two-weapon fighting as fighting styles. The only reason (barring multiclass shenanigans) I could think of taking Valour over Swords for a melee bard would be if you want to use STR based martial weapons, and if you want the shield proficiency, but doing so would probably spread your ability scores thin.

[craig234]

Having those spells like fireball and spirit guardians (at 6 and higher level later) sounds great, and having ranged flourish to get two shots sounds good also.

[seeker1]

I've been sampling some of the options at Nexus. (BTW, I always assume it's not incorrect to discuss mods unless people say they don't want that option discussed).

College of Glamour ... ehhh, it's very consistent to the class, but then also doesn't really provide anything the base class doesn't have already.
College of Spirits ... I love this one, and if I could figure out how to do it myself, I would; its only downside is the Tales from Beyond are randomly generated, so you never quite know which one you will get after each rest. If I could make them non-RNG based I would love this subclass. (I know that's how it's written in the source material.)
College of Creation ... I'm digging this one, not so much for the weird Pillars it can summon that protect you from being polymorphed (I mean how often does that happen?), but the Motes of Inspiration, and the ability to summon a magical dancing sword.

[Steffan]

I do not like College of Lore that much. If I really want to play a caster, I would go for a pure sorcerer. I know I am a minority here.

Sword and Valour bards are martial bards. They are full casters and at the same time get 2 weapon attacks per round.

Sword bard can also have a number of maneuvers that can increase his damage input (please note one of them is bugged so ranged attacks can deal double damage on a single character; this might be fixed in the near future, though). Main cons is the lack of shield proficiency and limited proficiency in martial weapons

Valour bard: probably my favourite. Proficiency in shields and all martial weapons. His inspirations can be used as a prebuff before combat. They increase the AC of your companions or the damage (unique for the v. bard; unlike lore bard, you do not expend a reaction to do so) or can be used to buff their saves or attacks (as with the other bard). It used to be bugged where you had to use shove to get rid of a stuck inspiration (it mght have been fixed, not sure).

I have personally had the biggest fun multiclassing bard and sorcerer.

In my current Honour run I am running 6 sorcerer, 6 valour bard: access to shield, false life, counterspell and fireball, metamagic (quicken spell), 2 melee attacks per found 24 AC (which can jump to 29 with shield spell; the reeling debuff from adamantine gear is not calculated). With the right gear (arcane acuity boost) his spells such as hideous laughter are really hard to be resisted. Or against mobs go insane an cast fireball after a fireball.

I guess it could also work with 6 sorcerer, 5 sword bard and 1 lvl of a fighter (for the proficiencies)

For a mulitplayer I plan to go to 10 valour bard and 2 lvls of a sorcerer (again for shield, magic missile and false life). This time I do plan to get some useful smite abilities at the 10th bard level.

P.S. Keep in mind I like strength based melee characters. So basically I am maxing Strength and Charisma to the best of my abilities; and keep Con at a decent level. Low Dex does hurt in the very start of the game but you can get the Alert feat and a Dex boosting gear later in the game.

[AokiYakumo]

craig234 původně napsal:

Not the basic 'what are they', but a bit more detailed pros and cons.

If you're looking for a good support class that can carry through the game, Lore Bard's where it's at. Right out the gate, having the ability to debuff enemy attacks/saves can save lives in some scenarios, whether it's to block an incoming attack that would down a character, or if it's to guarantee a failed save against crowd control.

They also get a lot of the good crowd control options like Hideous Laughter, Sleep, Plant Growth, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, etc.; and with Magical Secrets at 6th they can double up on this with Command, Hunger of Hadar, Sleet Storm, Slow, etc.

Finally, Lore Bards are junkie monkies. You get 8 skill profs. by default, 2-4 of which can get expertise, which can make you as good of a skill abuser as a Happy Asty.

The major downside of a Lore Bard is the general lack of defensive options. You're basically locked into the BoB build for mot of the game (although Wondergloves and Boots of Brilliance are great to have on hand). Assuming 16 DEX by 8th, and with Elegant Studded, you'd have a base AC of 17, +1 from Wondergloves, +1 from Cloak of Protection (which is more valuable than Cloak of Displacement here), totalling AC 19 - meaning you're basically married to a Radiant Orb CLC for most of the game.

It'll actually be better to go for options that mitigate or repair damage as opposed to avoiding it, so Wavemother's Robes, Regen Ring, Helm of Balduran (if you can wear it, otherwise stick to Wapira's Crown or Cap of Curing), Ring of Salving, and Boots of Aid and Comfort are gonna be your primaries.

Regen Ring + Ring of Salving + Wavemother's Robes while Wet or in water generate 2d4+4 HP per turn, basically a free Healing Word proc, and you're a Lore Bard so you have Aura of Vitality available as a secret, which will add another 2d6+2 per use (with 10-20 uses per cast dependent upon your build) while also healing you for 1d6 (if you have Wapira's Crown). All of which are able to add 3 THP per use if you have Boots of Aid and Comfort (so 2d4+4 becomes 2d4+7 and 2d6+2 becomes 2d6+5).

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As far as offense goes, Swords Bard is basically unbeatable. I won't go too much in detail with this but the gist of it is high burst damage thanks to Flourishes (The Ranged Slashing Flourish in particular doubles your attacks per round which is just bonkers), access to good control spells, Medium armor prof., Scimi prof. (which means Belm + Walking Fortress or Shield of the Undevout), And access to huge amounts of mobility when you need it thanks to Mobile Flourish and access to Misty Step at 10th.

Crazy thing is Swords Bard has like VERY little use for actual spellcasting in the right gameplay loops. The one I played only really used theirs for Hex, Healing Word, Enhance Ability, and the occasional Plant Growth or Misty Step. Sure, they can become powerhouses with things like the Infernal Rapier or the Acuity cap (which can make their spells hit like trucks and be unresistable), but their martial prowess is just too good to pass up.

Swords Bard's biggest issue is their MAD nature. You'll want a good DEX for offense and AC, a good CHA for spellcasting, and - because you're likely gonna be a frontliner - good CON both for survivability and for concentration.

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Where Lore Bards excel at debuffing, the Valor Bard excels at buffing. The combat inspiration they give out can be a really good damage amp, a good shield, or a really strong barrier against some harsh spellcasting. They get better proficiencies than a Swords Bard (with access to all Martial weapons) but lack the Swords Bard's damage amps since you can't inspire yourself.

Ironically this makes the Valor Bard the best user of BoB and the Cap of Curing, as you can heal while you're buffing up without expending extra resources and still have your main action available for other things. Plus, Cap of Curing enables Whispering Promise which will add a d4 to all attacks and saves for a turn, meaning the target of their inspiration can basically guarantee a hit or easily shrug off a spell effect. On top of all of that, they can still learn Aura of Vitality as 10th which makes then a great vehicle for healing. (Not as efficiently as a Lore Bard can, because they can dip out at 8th to grab a CLC level for Disciple of Life then 3 levels into ROG for Fast Hands, making it possible for them to heal 4d6+14 per turn for 10 turns with only a single spell slot).

I guess the biggest drawback of the Valor Bard is the fact it's middle of the road. It can't compete with Lore Bard in terms of spellcasting, and it can't compete with the raw DPS output of the Swords Bard. It's good for both, but never the best option.

[anachoret]

Omegatherion původně napsal:

Swords Bard is broken because:

Ranged Flourishes (who added those? Seriously. As if Larian doesn't care about balancing)

Due to that it is the best class to abuse Arcane Acuity/Band of Mystic Scoundrel synergies and break the game. You don't even have to go into melee range and can still in almost every fight in just 1 turn.
As long as you use Command: Grovel being in melee range is not a bad thing though, as enemies can't touch you anyways.

I'm not even starting to talk about SSB at this point.

That being said, it is still fun. But only really for one run and then it gets boring.

Just pretend that the dual handcrossbows shoot tiny swords

[craig234]

If the bard gets the secret spells like fireball, do they use Charisma to cast?

The 'why not play a wizard or sorcerer' makes sense, but it's still tempting.

[iamcorn]

Lore >>>> the other two.

[DeMasked]

craig234 původně napsal:

If the bard gets the secret spells like fireball, do they use Charisma to cast?

The 'why not play a wizard or sorcerer' makes sense, but it's still tempting.

Yes. The spell would be in the Bard Spellbook so would be based on Charisma.

Spell Sniper Feat would be based on your initial class spell ability attack. So a Cleric could get Eldritch Blast that would use Wisdom.

[The HR Department]

Being able to entice the enemy into a duet of sheer performance power (and then get people to phone in their votes and everyone pretends like that means about as much as your IRL electoral vote in a free democracy) and you succeed on a Bardic flourish with a wink from RP Simon Cowell, from when he still had that ability.