what is the best sorcerer class

[Gunsaremagic]

Just wondering whats class do the most damage

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by paulxiep:

Relying on a caster for direct damage will only build a bad caster. Casters do excel in maybe multi-target damage against weak mobs, but it's the stronger enemies and bosses you should worry about.

Hmm, and then my level 10 evocation wizard (with certain rings and amulets) does about 50 hp damage with a level 1 magic missile spell. Which always hits (except for the few enemies with the shield spell).

So, yeah, I could be using a higher-level control spell, or I could be just killing the enemies and moving on.

[FunkyMonkey]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Originally posted by paulxiep:

Relying on a caster for direct damage will only build a bad caster. Casters do excel in maybe multi-target damage against weak mobs, but it's the stronger enemies and bosses you should worry about.

Hmm, and then my level 10 evocation wizard (with certain rings and amulets) does about 50 hp damage with a level 1 magic missile spell. Which always hits (except for the few enemies with the shield spell).

So, yeah, I could be using a higher-level control spell, or I could be just killing the enemies and moving on.

If you are fighting only one 50 HP enemy, I wouldn't use any spell slots.

The point is that while a caster can do good, even excellent single-target damage, it's an opportunity cost to do so. A Fighter can do as much or more single-target damage with less effort and almost no resource cost. When the caster is doing it, they aren't controlling every other enemy in the field. Killing one vs stopping multiple is what I'm arguing here.

No one is arguing that casters can't do damage. When you build your caster to do damage, you are not playing them optimally, in my opinion.

And this is from someone who almost always plays with full 12 level Evocation wizards.

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by FunkyMonkey:

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Hmm, and then my level 10 evocation wizard (with certain rings and amulets) does about 50 hp damage with a level 1 magic missile spell. Which always hits (except for the few enemies with the shield spell).

So, yeah, I could be using a higher-level control spell, or I could be just killing the enemies and moving on.

If you are fighting only one 50 HP enemy, I wouldn't use any spell slots.

The point is that while a caster can do good, even excellent single-target damage, it's an opportunity cost to do so. A Fighter can do as much or more single-target damage with less effort and almost no resource cost. When the caster is doing it, they aren't controlling every other enemy in the field. Killing one vs stopping multiple is what I'm arguing here.

No one is arguing that casters can't do damage. When you build your caster to do damage, you are not playing them optimally, in my opinion.

And this is from someone who almost always plays with full 12 level Evocation wizards.

Well, we all have our own ideas on optimization. This morning I beat Raphael using honor rules with no crowd control other than black hole, no barrels, etc. Just out-DPSed him with Hope and Shadowheart keeping everyone else alive. (I did have Yurgir.) I'm not terribly worried about further optimizing if I can take out the elite bosses in the game.

I like that there are many potentially successful ways to play this game, not just one min-max path to victory. I've locked Raph down with repeated casts of hold monster, and I know that works too. But it's not the only way. And, for me, "optimal" is whatever seems fun to try at the time I'm trying it.

[Moonbane]

Sorcerers is dps, wizards is not.
Sorcerers can twincast scrolls, getting double output.

[FunkyMonkey]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Originally posted by FunkyMonkey:

If you are fighting only one 50 HP enemy, I wouldn't use any spell slots.

The point is that while a caster can do good, even excellent single-target damage, it's an opportunity cost to do so. A Fighter can do as much or more single-target damage with less effort and almost no resource cost. When the caster is doing it, they aren't controlling every other enemy in the field. Killing one vs stopping multiple is what I'm arguing here.

No one is arguing that casters can't do damage. When you build your caster to do damage, you are not playing them optimally, in my opinion.

And this is from someone who almost always plays with full 12 level Evocation wizards.

Well, we all have our own ideas on optimization. This morning I beat Raphael using honor rules with no crowd control other than black hole, no barrels, etc. Just out-DPSed him with Hope and Shadowheart keeping everyone else alive. (I did have Yurgir.) I'm not terribly worried about further optimizing if I can take out the elite bosses in the game.

I like that there are many potentially successful ways to play this game, not just one min-max path to victory. I've locked Raph down with repeated casts of hold monster, and I know that works too. But it's not the only way. And, for me, "optimal" is whatever seems fun to try at the time I'm trying it.

That is fair. I just tend to push back on the idea that all that matters is damage. Especially when it comes to casters, they have so much more to offer than just big numbers on screen.

[MrQun]

I don't think that I like Sorcerers very much. Maybe I don't know how to use them, but whenever I have played as a Sorcerer I quickly run out of spell slots and they seem to be very long rest dependant.

[Thomas D.]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

So, yeah, I could be using a higher-level control spell, or I could be just killing the enemies and moving on.

Agree on this one, thats exactly the point plenty of people dont get. Damage is king in most games (including this one) and you dont need control, healing or anything else if you are fighting dead corpse...

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Hmm, and then my level 10 evocation wizard (with certain rings and amulets) does about 50 hp damage with a level 1 magic missile spell. Which always hits (except for the few enemies with the shield spell).

Which is to be honest, absolutely bad and low damage while wasting ressources... In that case you are indeed more useful if you use control / buff spells and stuff like that...

A Warlock could out DPS that with just a Cantrip without wasteing any ressources and a Warlock + Sorcerer would easily do more than double that damage for just 3 Sorcery Points, effortless...

Originally posted by Moonbane:

Sorcerers is dps, wizards is not.
Sorcerers can twincast scrolls, getting double output.

Even triple with some spells (if one is Twin Castable).

Or you could cast control / buff spells (like twice control person, even you need to multiclass for that spell or things like haste on 2 allies) and cast a damage spell on top of that. Basically something a Wizard would need 3 turns for...

Just use a twin castable spell as action and then quicken spell another full spell of your choice.

Originally posted by MrQun:

I don't think that I like Sorcerers very much. Maybe I don't know how to use them, but whenever I have played as a Sorcerer I quickly run out of spell slots and they seem to be very long rest dependant.

Try to Multiclass with Warlock and use Eldritch Blast + Quicken Spell instead of high leveled spells for standard fights where you dont need a big AOE or huge single Target damage to burn a boss.

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

I'm not terribly worried about further optimizing if I can take out the elite bosses in the game.

I like that there are many potentially successful ways to play this game, not just one min-max path to victory.

Sure but that doesnt matter because the discussion is about whats more better / whats more damage not that you can beat the game with sub optimal tactics, build and strats or suboptimal damage.

Probably there are people that have beaten the game without any gear...

Originally posted by FunkyMonkey:

I just tend to push back on the idea that all that matters is damage. Especially when it comes to casters, they have so much more to offer than just big numbers on screen.

Sure but the topic is exactly about whats more damage, you know... ?

And discussing personal flavour wont help anyone, especially because plenty of people would have a complete different opinion on that than you and the discussion wouldnt yield anything useful...

Originally posted by Metrod125:

The last two of the ways you just listed are legal within the rules of the game. the other three would get you banished from the DM's table if you refused to correct it.
So since you've keep mentioning the exploitative use of bugs, there is no point in further discussion on the topic.

The game, a software, is a fixed ruleset not some inaccurate / flexible ruleset a DM puts out so everything the game allows to do is legal (as long as you dont use Hacks to alter that fixed ruleset). Basically that game (the software) IS the DM and if it lets you do something then its allowed to do it!

You sound more like a player at a table that starts some stupid discussion because he thinks that another player on the table shouldnt be allowed to do something that is defined in the rules of the game and approved by the DM and wants now to let the DM ban it.

Most often this happens by people who dont understand the rules, ♥♥♥♥ up their builds and want that everyone suffers as much as they do... Everyone who ever played tabletop has probably seen someone like you...

Originally posted by paulxiep:

Relying on a caster for direct damage will only build a bad caster. Casters do excel in maybe multi-target damage against weak mobs, but it's the stronger enemies and bosses you should worry about.

The best caster you could build is a control caster. You can build a Sorcerer for that, but none of the Sorcerer subclass contributes to the ability to control, so they're all equal.

It depends. When I see how much the wizard here is recommend (which definetly suck when it comes to damage), then yes I absolutely agree. But if you build a caster correctly (Melee War Cleric, all Sorcerer, Storm Sorcerer + Tempest Cleric and Sorcerer + Warlock) then you definetly can build a good damage caster. Especially when stuff goes down so quick that you dont need the caster to do anything else.

Also a Sorcerer can do both at the same time. Some control stuff + damage even you might need to multi class to gain some spells you otherwise wouldnt if you want to do this.

Also its not exactly true that all Sorcerer Subclasses are equal here.
Storm Sorcerer for example gets: Sleet Storm, Gust of Wind and Create Water which fits into this.

Black Draconic Sorcerer gains Grease.
Bronze Draconic Sorcerer gains Fog Cloud.
Copper Draconic Sorcerer gains Tashas Hideous Laughter.
And Brass Draconic Sorcerer gains Sleep.

And some of the Effects of a Wild Magic Sorcerer can also fall into this category (even they arent reliable).

Originally posted by paulxiep:

But if it's top caster you're looking for, I think a combination of Swords Bard and Wizard is the top one. Swords Bard solves Wizard's weakness in lack of Arcane Acuity, while Wizard solves Bard's problem of spell choice limitations. Combining them gets you the best features of both classes. I'd go even further that Swords Bard / Spore Druid / Wizard is even better, being able to Haste the whole party and Attack then cast any spell on the same turn. Way better resource efficiency than Sorcerers too.

If we are talking about damage. Then hell no, not even close to a Sorcerer... If you really thing that it comes even close to a Sorcerer in Damage output then there is no wonder that you think casters arent good in dealing damage.

But how will you be able to haste the whole party and attack then cast any spell on the same turn, can you explain?

Originally posted by MrQun:

I don't think that I like Sorcerers very much. Maybe I don't know how to use them, but whenever I have played as a Sorcerer I quickly run out of spell slots and they seem to be very long rest dependant.

Then try to Multiclass with Warlock to gain Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast und use that together with quicken spell for normal fights where you dont need big AOE damage or high single target damage to burn a boss.

Then just transform low level spell slots in sorcery points out of combat.

You can burn the ressources on a Sorcerer very quick, but you dont have to and if you do it for example with this variant you will dish out more damage than most casters and use almost no ressources.

You just have to know when to save ressources and when to burn them all to nuke the enemy.

[paulxiep]

Originally posted by Moonbane:

Hat of Fire Acuity + Scorching Ray.

Assuming you go through all the trouble (if it's even worth the trouble at all) to force vulnerability to Fire on an enemy, this will deal good damage... at a very steep price. Fire vulnerability is very hard to create, unless you manage that, best you could do with Scorching Ray is probably flat +6 from draconic, +4 from Marko, +3 from Rhapsody, +2d6 or 4d6 depending on crit, per ray, maybe +2 from Callous Glow Ring, and that's it.

Assuming you use a control caster to help force auto-crit (which proves control caster is far superior to damage caster), Scorching Ray deals 6+4+3+14+2 = 29 damage per ray. With level 6 slot (7 rays), you deal 203 damage. Against the 2 big bosses like Ansur and Raphael it's even worse. Ansur has a flat -4 reduction, so it's 23 damage per ray, totaling 161 per a level 6 slot. Raph is outright immune.

Lightning is not any better. Level 6 Witch Bolt with Tempest max damage is 72, double with Wet for 144, and double with crit for 288. But Raph is naturally resistant to Lightning, so half that. Raph takes 144 per level 6 slot at most. Ansur is outright immune.

Casters can waste a level 6 slot with a lot of other set-ups to deal less than 300 damage.

And that's why damage caster is a bad caster. This is even if they have help from a control caster to guarantee auto-crit.

Control caster guaranteeing auto-crit for martials will totally out-damage that by far, all the while using a level 5 spell slot at most.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by MrQun:

I don't think that I like Sorcerers very much. Maybe I don't know how to use them, but whenever I have played as a Sorcerer I quickly run out of spell slots and they seem to be very long rest dependant.

They're actually not that good.

Yes, you can exploit the Wet condition to deal huge amounts of Cold/Lightning dmg, but that's about it.

Twin casting Haste on your martial characters.

Wild Magic is fun just because it makes the game more interesting.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by paulxiep:

Originally posted by Moonbane:

Hat of Fire Acuity + Scorching Ray.

Assuming you go through all the trouble (if it's even worth the trouble at all) to force vulnerability to Fire on an enemy, this will deal good damage... at a very steep price. Fire vulnerability is very hard to create, unless you manage that, best you could do with Scorching Ray is probably flat +6 from draconic, +4 from Marko, +3 from Rhapsody, +2d6 or 4d6 depending on crit, per ray, maybe +2 from Callous Glow Ring, and that's it.

Assuming you use a control caster to help force auto-crit (which proves control caster is far superior to damage caster), Scorching Ray deals 6+4+3+14+2 = 29 damage per ray. With level 6 slot (7 rays), you deal 203 damage. Against the 2 big bosses like Ansur and Raphael it's even worse. Ansur has a flat -4 reduction, so it's 23 damage per ray, totaling 161 per a level 6 slot. Raph is outright immune.

Lightning is not any better. Level 6 Witch Bolt with Tempest max damage is 72, double with Wet for 144, and double with crit for 288. But Raph is naturally resistant to Lightning, so half that. Raph takes 144 per level 6 slot at most. Ansur is outright immune.

Casters can waste a level 6 slot with a lot of other set-ups to deal less than 300 damage.

And that's why damage caster is a bad caster. This is even if they have help from a control caster to guarantee auto-crit.

Control caster guaranteeing auto-crit for martials will totally out-damage that by far, all the while using a level 5 spell slot at most.

As far as control goes, I've found that a combination of cold (Sleet Storm, Ray of Frost, Ice Storm, Wall of Ice, Cone of Cold), thorns/plants (Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Wall of Thorns) and enchantment spells (Hold Person/Monster, Confusion, Hypnotic Pattern) absolutely wrecks this game.

[seeker1]

I'm currently using a Tav right now who is basically a Frost (Silver) Dragon Knight. All his abilities and spells are focused around using cold. and frost. I've never tried such a build before, I'm usually literally building up Karlach's ability to set stuff on fire.

Yeah, it's really amazing what you can do, freezing stuff in place, literally, with such a build, and this is why I love the modders for this game - they help me try such builds out.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

I should add darkness to that list too (specifically, Hunger of Hadar, altjough Evard's Black Tentacles isn't bad).

Spike Growth (or Wall of Thorns at late levels...although summoning a Dryad so you get both is a lot of fun too), Sleet Storm, and Hunger of Hadar all used together pretty much ends all encounters.

You can Twin Spell Ray of Frost for some srsly cheap dmg. Drop Ice Storms, summon Ice Mephits and Water Elementals.

I don't think there's a more powerful combination for shutting evrrything down.

[paulxiep]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Cassandra:

As far as control goes, I've found that a combination of cold (Sleet Storm, Ray of Frost, Ice Storm, Wall of Ice, Cone of Cold), thorns/plants (Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Wall of Thorns) and enchantment spells (Hold Person/Monster, Confusion, Hypnotic Pattern) absolutely wrecks this game.

Yes, most of those are multi-target, either multi-purpose or defensive control.

The spell-damage-obsessed fans were going on and on about the puny damage their sorcerers could do, so I explained why (offensive) control is the key to deal way, way more damage than any direct damage spell ever can.