Baldur's Gate 3

Baldur's Gate 3

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Gunsaremagic Nov 15, 2024 @ 1:50am
what is the best sorcerer class
Just wondering whats class do the most damage
Last edited by Gunsaremagic; Nov 15, 2024 @ 2:14am
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Showing 31-45 of 58 comments
seeker1 Nov 15, 2024 @ 2:11pm 
Originally posted by Thomas D.:
I dont consider Barbarians even not Wild Magic Barbarians Casters.

They are not. "Triggering a random magical effect" is not spellcasting. Battleragers ARE, though.

Some people love randomness and the unexpected. Me, nah. So I never play Wild Magic barbarians, or sorcerors. One of my least favorite items in "classic" D & D was the Wand of Wonder, whose effect when you used it was random (sometimes beneficial, sometimes not.)

I tolerated the astral inabilities of the Astral Seer because you could USUALLY suppress them, and even if you didn't the chance of them triggering was low. Overall, the kick-arse nature of the class made up for it.

Also I dont consider Half Casters like Paladins to be Casters. But even in that case Arcane Trickster would be a hard contender for being the worst.

Well, the math and terminology gets thrown off by the level cap, but technically, there are:

"1/3" casters like Arcane Trickster and EK - only get 1st & 2nd level spells
"Half" casters like Ranger and Paladin - levels 1-3
"Full" casters get lvls 1-6 (bearing in mind nobody gets lvls 7-9, well, not withoud mods)

Although if you use ULC, & some supplements, your rangers and paladins can get up to 5th level spells, once they hit levels beyond 13. (I think there's a full caster ranger mod, but it just apes druid progression. The Paladin Overhaul lets them acquire some 4th and 5th level spells like Banishing Smite, etc. at levels 14-20.)

Not even close and Tempest Cleric is even not the best Cleric...

Personally, among the existing domains, I found War to be disappointing ... so I usually stick to Tempest or Light. Trickery, SH's default, is (IMHO) hands down the worst, always quickly respec her. If you want a healbot, pick Life, but I don't use my clerics that way.

I found new enthusiasm for both Light and Tempest once you see their extended spell list with/for Mystra's Spells.

Outside of that, with mods, there's other 5E ones like Forge and Order, I kinda like those, I'm not a fan of most of the other mod domains. If I enjoyed playing evil, Death Domain rocks, but. I don't. Same reason I couldn't really get into Dread Overlord warlock, I mean the giant skeleton and other summons are awesome, but I couldn't get into this constant feasting on souls.
Last edited by seeker1; Nov 15, 2024 @ 2:53pm
Thomas D. Nov 15, 2024 @ 3:55pm 
@Pan Darius Cassandra

Just let us put some numbers into the damage argumentation.

First, lets start with cleric, the best Spell the Cleric can learn that utilizes Lightning or Thunder Damage is Call Lightning (Correct me if I am wrong here).

So lets upcast it as Level 6 spell. This are 3d10 + 3d10 (upcast) = 6d10.

Because the Cleric can maximize its damage, thats just 60 Damage...

Except if he uses 2 Turns, then he can make the enemy wet and cast it for 120 Damage.

So in total:
1 Round = 60 Damage
2 Rounds = 120 Damage



Now lets do the same for the Sorcerer:

We take the same spell for comparison first. So the same 6d10, because its not max damage its on average 33 Damage.

But the Sorcerer can cast wet and then Call Lightning in the same round, so its:

1 Round = 66 Damage
2 Rounds = 198 Damage (because you can cast it on the second round twice)

Plus if you consider Heart of the Storm which you will guranteed be able to trigger its even 6 Damage (Level 12 Storm Sorcer) on top of that.

So in total:
1 Round = 72 Damage
2 Rounds = 210 Damage

So with the exact same spell the sorcerer is already stronger in Round 1 and twice as strong in Round 2! Thats not a little bit stronger thats a HUGE difference (for Round 2)!



But its not the strongest Spell the Sorcerer can learn. The Sorcerer can also learn Chain Lightning which the Cleric cant. Chain Lightning is 10d8, which is at average already 55 Damage (almost as strong as Clerics maxed out damage).

So it would be:
1 Round = 116 Damage (double damage Chain Lightning + Heart of the Storm)
2 Rounds = First Round + double damage Chain Lightning + Heart of the Storm + double Damage Call Lightning (because of Spell Slots) = 298 Damage

Thats almost 3x the Damage of the Cleric. And it even doesnt end here, there are some tricks to get that base damage even higher (with Markoheshkir, because it allows for an additional Chain Lightning that can even be Twin Cast which would yield into a total of 452 Damage which is almost 4x the amount of damage of the cleric...)

Also thats average damage if really lucky it could be even twice the damage, basically 800+ (and it could even be increased further with gear)...

But its a nuke that makes long resting necessary but even if you rest less, you see that you can easily at least get the same if not more damage out than the cleric that also has to rest to do its comparable low damage...

There is literally no caster in the game that even remotely gets on the same Tier and maybe thats even more than I did sometimes dish out with my (3 Attack) Paladin 😁.

Als thats even not takeing any gear procs into account (like lightning charges) which profit the Storm Sorcerer even more than the Cleric (because of more Attacks).

So, no, its not even a question, a pure Storm Sorcerer is stronger than a pure Cleric (even if not utilizing max damage)...



Btw. here is another interesting (pure single target) thing you could for example do with a Sorcerer + Warlock (thats also the reason why its so popular), which costs only 3 sorcery points (3 level 1 spell slots for example):

Eldritch Blast (with 24 Charisma which is easy to reach with several methods):
Base Damage: 1D10 Damage per Ray
Agonizing Blast: 7 Damage per Ray
Potent Robe: 7 Damage per Ray
Total = 3x (5,5 + 7 + 7) = 59 Damage

Now Cast Eldritch Blast twice in the same round (only 3 Sorcery Points):
Round 1: 117 Damage
Round 2: 234 Damage

Total cost: 6 Sorcery Points (2x Level 3 Spell Slots for example)

And there is even some gear / some effects that can add additional damage (usually per ray! so 6x)



And with a Storm Sorcerer + Warlock you had at all times this cheap and strong damage variant and on demand a big AOE nuke.

Alternatively you could go Draconic and do something similar with Firebolt (even in most cases weaker) and would loose that big AOE nukes. Still even in this case it would be stronger than the Cleric.
Last edited by Thomas D.; Nov 15, 2024 @ 4:07pm
Thomas D. Nov 15, 2024 @ 4:05pm 
Originally posted by seeker1:
Personally, among the existing domains, I found War to be disappointing ... so I usually stick to Tempest or Light. Trickery, SH's default, is (IMHO) hands down the worst, always quickly respec her. If you want a healbot, pick Life, but I don't use my clerics that way.

I found new enthusiasm for both Light and Tempest once you see their extended spell list with/for Mystra's Spells.

Outside of that, with mods, there's other 5E ones like Forge and Order, I kinda like those, I'm not a fan of most of the other mod domains. If I enjoyed playing evil, Death Domain rocks, but. I don't. Same reason I couldn't really get into Dread Overlord warlock, I mean the giant skeleton and other summons are awesome, but I couldn't get into this constant feasting on souls.
If you play the War Cleric as Caster or Supporter it is kind of meh.

You had to play the War Cleric similar to a Paladin and thats where he gets really really powerful (more than any other Cleric at least for pure damage) even it will have some built up also you need to Multi Class with a Melee Class to gain Extra Attack (Fighter, Paladin, Sword Bard, Pactblade Warlock, Ranger).

You had basically to get at least 5 levels in Cleric and 5/6 levels in the other Class (to gain Multi Attack).

Also its kind of vital to get Constitution Proficiency and high Constitution (at least 16 better 18). You could start for example with Fighter (you will losse plenty spell slots so it might not be the best choice) or Multiclass 1 Level Sorcerer in (not recommend) or get it via a Feat. Then you had to push your main Attribute (Strength, Dexterity or in Case of Warlock Charisma) and leave some points in Wisodm (maybe even wear Heavy Armor and ignore Dexterity completely).

Now you open your first Round with (upcasted) Spirit Guardians (thats because Concentration is so vital) and something on your Bonus Round, for example Spiritual Weapon. This way you can do some damage, especially if there are plenty enemies around you you will be able to damage them (and already do good damage), if its only a single enemy the damage will be mediocre (at Round 1).

Then after Round 2 Attack twice, use the War Priest Charge for a 3rd Attack, now you are doing basically almost the same damage a Fighter would do but because your spirit Guardians (and spiritual weapon) are active you are beginning even to do more damage (about as much as 4 attacks would do) and if surrounded by enemies even a lot more!

Every round the fight prolongs (and you keep concecentration) the higher the gap between you and a fighter gets and if you multiclassed into Paladin you even can Smite on top of that for extra damage 🤣. Even more often than you usually would be able as a Paladin. Also you can gain Aura of Protection which helps with keeping Concentration (and you could even go with less constitution in this case).

A Bard had the Advantage of Blade Flourishes for even more AOE damage and Pactblade had the advantage that you could basically focus on Charisma (for Warlock Spells + Melee Fighting)
Last edited by Thomas D.; Nov 15, 2024 @ 4:17pm
Originally posted by Thomas D.:
@Pan Darius Cassandra

Just let us put some numbers into the damage argumentation.

First, lets start with cleric, the best Spell the Cleric can learn that utilizes Lightning or Thunder Damage is Call Lightning (Correct me if I am wrong here).

So lets upcast it as Level 6 spell. This are 3d10 + 3d10 (upcast) = 6d10.

Because the Cleric can maximize its damage, thats just 60 Damage...

Except if he uses 2 Turns, then he can make the enemy wet and cast it for 120 Damage.

So in total:
1 Round = 60 Damage
2 Rounds = 120 Damage



Now lets do the same for the Sorcerer:

We take the same spell for comparison first. So the same 6d10, because its not max damage its on average 33 Damage.

But the Sorcerer can cast wet and then Call Lightning in the same round, so its:

1 Round = 66 Damage
2 Rounds = 198 Damage (because you can cast it on the second round twice)

Plus if you consider Heart of the Storm which you will guranteed be able to trigger its even 6 Damage (Level 12 Storm Sorcer) on top of that.

So in total:
1 Round = 72 Damage
2 Rounds = 210 Damage

So with the exact same spell the sorcerer is already stronger in Round 1 and twice as strong in Round 2! Thats not a little bit stronger thats a HUGE difference (for Round 2)!



But its not the strongest Spell the Sorcerer can learn. The Sorcerer can also learn Chain Lightning which the Cleric cant. Chain Lightning is 10d8, which is at average already 55 Damage (almost as strong as Clerics maxed out damage).

So it would be:
1 Round = 116 Damage (double damage Chain Lightning + Heart of the Storm)
2 Rounds = First Round + double damage Chain Lightning + Heart of the Storm + double Damage Call Lightning (because of Spell Slots) = 298 Damage

Thats almost 3x the Damage of the Cleric. And it even doesnt end here, there are some tricks to get that base damage even higher (with Markoheshkir, because it allows for an additional Chain Lightning that can even be Twin Cast which would yield into a total of 452 Damage which is almost 4x the amount of damage of the cleric...)

Also thats average damage if really lucky it could be even twice the damage, basically 800+ (and it could even be increased further with gear)...

But its a nuke that makes long resting necessary but even if you rest less, you see that you can easily at least get the same if not more damage out than the cleric that also has to rest to do its comparable low damage...

There is literally no caster in the game that even remotely gets on the same Tier and maybe thats even more than I did sometimes dish out with my (3 Attack) Paladin 😁.

Als thats even not takeing any gear procs into account (like lightning charges) which profit the Storm Sorcerer even more than the Cleric (because of more Attacks).

So, no, its not even a question, a pure Storm Sorcerer is stronger than a pure Cleric (even if not utilizing max damage)...

And there is even some gear / some effects that can add additional damage (usually per ray! so 6x)

That's not really a good comparison because you're comparing a burst dmg spell to a sustain dmg spell.

A level 6 Call Lightning gets a total of 60d10 if you manage to go 10 rounds, 120d10 against wet, and 126d10 if you use Destructive Wrath on one of them.

Tempest Clerics have other burst dmg spells like Thunderwave, Ice Storm or Destructive Wrath, but no one's trying to argue that blowing one's entire load in a single round isn't the Sorcerer's gimmick - you can upcast Chain Lightning or whatever and spend all your Sorcery Points to cast it twice in one round - and then you're almost out of points and slots at that point, while the Cleric can keep it up for another nine rounds.

The question becomes do you like more burst or more sustain?

But this is really where multiclassing the two gives you the best of both worlds.

As a monoclass, however, I favor Tempest Clerics because they can keep dishing out a ton of damage turn after turn after turn, blowing at least one up to max dmg (more if you get additional Channel Divinity charges, which you can with gear and I believe you get one more through the base class), and gear is kind of irrelevant, because that can benefit any class - Clerics can use Markoheshkir just as easily as a Sorcerer can, and they can use scrolls too.

I'd rather have a Cleric with scrolls of Chain Lightning than a Sorcerer that can't max out dmg.

Both are good, but I think Tempest is the better lightning dmg dealer (and cold/thunder too).

Moreover, I'm trying to point out that the actual subclass features of the Storm Sorcerer don't contribute that much to their dmg potential - any Sorcerer subclass gets Quickened Spell, and Draconics can add their Cha modifier.
Last edited by Pan Darius Cassandra; Nov 15, 2024 @ 5:33pm
My biggest gripe about the Tempest Cleric is actually that they don't get access to Lightning Bolt, as in some situations it's actually better than Chain Lightning.

Otoh, both Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning scrolls are abundant, but you can't upcast a Lightning Bolt scroll.
Metrod125 Nov 15, 2024 @ 5:59pm 
Originally posted by Thomas D.:
Originally posted by Metrod125:
There is also no "several ways" to get 24 CHA. You hit the max of 20. +2 from Shar mirror and either wear a funny yet stylish hat or steal a magic sword from the grand duke for another +2. (The hat and sword don't stack)
Again wrong...

You can easily get 20 in Charisma. Someone reported a few weeks ago that the +1 Charisma Feats (Actor, dont remember the other) allow to increase Charisma beyond 20, which probably isnt working as intended. Also I havent verified this, so not sure about this one.

But there are other ways too:
Mirror of Loss allows +3 if you do it right and aunties Hair allows +1, this way you can get 24 without the sword and without the hat. Also you mentioned yourself the sword (havent tested that one).

This alone are 3 ways, now you could do other routes like going only 18 or 19 with Feats and climb the rest by other means.

So yes there are several ways...

Base/Starting CHA: 17 (no ASI/half ASI)
Auntie Hair: 1 + 17 = 18
Mirror of Loss: 2 + 18 = 20
Patriar's Memory: 1 + 20 = 21.

B/S CHA (with half ASI) 18
Auntie Hair: 1 + 18 = 19
Mirror of Loss: 2 + 19 = 21
Patriar's Memory: 1 + 21 = 22

B/S CHA (with full ASI) 19
Auntie Hair: 1 + 19 = 20
Mirror of Loss: 2 + 20 = 22
Patriar's Memory: 1 + 22 = 23

B/S CHA (with both full/half ASI) 20
Auntie Hair: 1 + 20 = 21
Mirror of Loss: 2 + 21 = 23
Patriar's Memory: 1 + 23 = 24
This is the most inefficient/feat expensive route


If you don't like taking more than one ASI feat, you need one of either the hat or the sword to reach 24 CHA with the aforementioned benefits above. The hat caps at 22 while the sword caps at 24. You could probably use both together as its been too long since I played my sorc and warlock. But the game hard caps at 24 in this regard. In addition the Patriar's Memory isn't just hard to acquire. It is abysmally low that requires several reloads to try and was probably put there more of as a joke. Its useful when you DO get it possibly, but otherwise a gigantic waste of time to spend on.

The aforementioned bug is only with the Actor feat (Reported on the BG3 wiki), netting you a useless 25 CHA as you get no positives from uneven numbers. I also don't consider the use of bugs as valid build options as its clearly not intended, as full/half ASI feats are supposed to stop at 20.
Last edited by Metrod125; Nov 15, 2024 @ 6:58pm
Mike Garrison Nov 15, 2024 @ 6:20pm 
Originally posted by Metrod125:
you need either the hat or the sword to reach 24 CHA. The hat caps at 22 while the sword caps at 24. You could probably use both together
The mirror stacks with the hat to reach 24.

I assume the sword does too, but I don't know for sure.
Metrod125 Nov 15, 2024 @ 6:38pm 
Originally posted by Mike Garrison:
Originally posted by Metrod125:
you need either the hat or the sword to reach 24 CHA. The hat caps at 22 while the sword caps at 24. You could probably use both together
The mirror stacks with the hat to reach 24.

I assume the sword does too, but I don't know for sure.
As I mentioned, its been a while and none of my current saves let me see both together to determine that, but I assume they do since they cap out at different values.
Thomas D. Nov 16, 2024 @ 1:33am 
@Metrod25
My point was that it's easier to reach 24 than some make it sound, because you have several things / ways that could up to 24. Also the Actor thing was more to get even more flexibility to get 24 than to get to 25.

For Example (if it's working which I assume when you say it allows you to go above 20)
20 + Actor + 3 Mirror
20 + Actor + Hair + 2 Mirror
20 + Actor + Hair + Hat
19 + Actor + Hat + 2 Mirror
19 + Actor + Hair + 3 Mirror
... (and several ways more)

@Pan Darius Cassandra
You argue that what I described is burning Sorcerer resources, yes it is and it was to demonstrate the potential, but that max Thunder / Shock Damage thing is also limited and burns faster than all the Sorcerers Resources. Also you can decide to burn less and have even more consistent and still higher damage if burning only a few resources, because you don't have to unleash the full power all the time and pick only a few things situationally.

And when it comes to consistent damage then I have shown that that's also higher with just Cantrips (in this case Eldritch Blast) but you can achieve almost the same / similar damage with casting 3 Fire bolts per round (which is better on a Draconic Sorcerer because he can add 3x his Charisma Modifier but would work also on a Storm Sorcerer when needed for adding it 2x).

Or just take Spell sniper to still gain Eldritch Blast and do almost the same damage and still do 6 Rays / Hits per round for a very long time (and trigger 6x on hit stuff and add at least 1x the Charisma Modifier when not Multi classed with Warlock).

That is consistent damage that is still higher than the non consistent maxed out damage of the cleric...

Also you can have both on a (Storm) Sorcerer Plan A (huge burst / nuke) and Plan B (prolonged consistent damage) and choose situationally how much of what you utilize. And both will do more damage than a Tempest Cleric can do.

Also sure Cleric can use gear but the Sorcerer profits from most gear more than the Cleric. Like anything that triggers on hit, triggers twice for Sorcerer or even 6x when using Eldritch Blast (for small cost when you use for example the Cantrip approach) or abilities from gear that hit a target can be twin casted (there are plenty of nice ways to utilize this, I mentioned one with the staff but there are more).

At least from a damage point of view the pure Sorcerer still by far outperforms the Cleric in any situation, anyway anytime and it's not even close...

If you still choose / prefer Cleric, good for you but the damage is definitely not a point to do so (there are other valid points and for those maybe light or life are better options or war if you still want to do damage, a melee war cleric easily outperforms a tempest cleric anytime)...

The tempest cleric sounds good on first glance but if you look deeper into what it is offering it falls short when comparing almost any other class at least for damage (not just Sorcerer). That's why I think Tempest isn't the best Subclass but not the worst either. While War and Life clerics have some unique abilities that make them outperform / shine in specific situations.

Also it's wrong that the Storm Sorcer doesn't add any damage. As mentioned Heart of the Storm. It adds basically exactly the same damage a Draconic Bloodline would add at least to one leveled spells.

Plus you gain strong spells you wouldn't gain otherwise with a Storm Sorcerer which allows to even do more damage (about twice to be more specific). And do that damage even more consistent (Chain Lightning).

So it's absolute nonsense to say that the Storm Sorcerer Subclass doesn't add any damage, it does (and it's not a tiny bit it's huge)! Because a storm sorcerer will deal about twice the damage of a lightning draconic Sorcerer because of wet and Chain Lightning (and a bit from Heart of the Storm)...

And the fire draconic sorcerer gets only good because of some very specific gear (that needs fire damage) and is worse otherwise. Lightning Sorcerer is definetly worse. And all other types are even worse.
Last edited by Thomas D.; Nov 16, 2024 @ 2:47am
Blurp Nov 16, 2024 @ 7:50am 
9lvl instorm sorc
2lvl in tempest cleric
1lvl in wizard

this is one of most op builds in the game, heavy armor, on demand crits and insane versatility of wizard for free
Metrod125 Nov 16, 2024 @ 8:41am 
Originally posted by Thomas D.:
@Metrod25
My point was that it's easier to reach 24 than some make it sound, because you have several things / ways that could up to 24. Also the Actor thing was more to get even more flexibility to get 24 than to get to 25.

For Example (if it's working which I assume when you say it allows you to go above 20)
20 + Actor + 3 Mirror
20 + Actor + Hair + 2 Mirror
20 + Actor + Hair + Hat
19 + Actor + Hat + 2 Mirror
19 + Actor + Hair + 3 Mirror
... (and several ways more)

You clearly missed the part where I specifically said that I don't consider using bugs as valid build options.
The last two of the ways you just listed are legal within the rules of the game. the other three would get you banished from the DM's table if you refused to correct it.
So since you've keep mentioning the exploitative use of bugs, there is no point in further discussion on the topic.
paulxiep Nov 16, 2024 @ 9:08am 
Relying on a caster for direct damage will only build a bad caster. Casters do excel in maybe multi-target damage against weak mobs, but it's the stronger enemies and bosses you should worry about.

The best caster you could build is a control caster. You can build a Sorcerer for that, but none of the Sorcerer subclass contributes to the ability to control, so they're all equal. I'd still place Wild Magic at the bottom tier due to potential for Wild Magic randomness to mess up.

But if it's top caster you're looking for, I think a combination of Swords Bard and Wizard is the top one. Swords Bard solves Wizard's weakness in lack of Arcane Acuity, while Wizard solves Bard's problem of spell choice limitations. Combining them gets you the best features of both classes. I'd go even further that Swords Bard / Spore Druid / Wizard is even better, being able to Haste the whole party and Attack then cast any spell on the same turn. Way better resource efficiency than Sorcerers too.
FunkyMonkey Nov 16, 2024 @ 11:42am 
Originally posted by paulxiep:
Relying on a caster for direct damage will only build a bad caster. Casters do excel in maybe multi-target damage against weak mobs, but it's the stronger enemies and bosses you should worry about.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. You *can* build Sorcs, Warlocks and Wizards do some impressive damage. But you can do that with *any other class*, too. What no other class can do as well as full casters is control the battlefield.
Last edited by FunkyMonkey; Nov 16, 2024 @ 11:46am
Moonbane Nov 16, 2024 @ 11:46am 
Originally posted by paulxiep:
Relying on a caster for direct damage will only build a bad caster. Casters do excel in maybe multi-target damage against weak mobs, but it's the stronger enemies and bosses you should worry about.

The best caster you could build is a control caster. You can build a Sorcerer for that, but none of the Sorcerer subclass contributes to the ability to control, so they're all equal. I'd still place Wild Magic at the bottom tier due to potential for Wild Magic randomness to mess up.

But if it's top caster you're looking for, I think a combination of Swords Bard and Wizard is the top one. Swords Bard solves Wizard's weakness in lack of Arcane Acuity, while Wizard solves Bard's problem of spell choice limitations. Combining them gets you the best features of both classes. I'd go even further that Swords Bard / Spore Druid / Wizard is even better, being able to Haste the whole party and Attack then cast any spell on the same turn. Way better resource efficiency than Sorcerers too.

Hat of Fire Acuity + Scorching Ray.
iamcorn Nov 16, 2024 @ 1:09pm 
If wild Magic actually did what it's TT counterpart does and replenish your tides of chaos when you roll a wild magic surge then it'd be great.

As it stands the best one is probably Storm (which ironically works better than it's TT counterpart since it's given some good spells sorcerer wouldn't otherwise have instead of a language that basically never comes up.)

With Draconic being fine and dandy if you want to narrow down what type of damage you'll use. Sorcerer has plenty of Fire, Ice and Lightning spells (though if you want to focus the latter you may as well go back to Storm) Poison has bits here and there (nothing really worth investing in towards the end when everything is basically immune to poison anyway) and Acid is the worst possible choice as Sorcerer has no leveled Acid spells in BG3.
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Date Posted: Nov 15, 2024 @ 1:50am
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