Why no separate 'Attractiveness' stat?

[Reaper]

I am often confused, when scripts go on and on about a character being so beautiful, but they have average charisma. Obviously charisma is part of being attractive and looks are subjective but as a rule of thumb I would expect some sort of corroboration, e.g. attractive =
high charisma, so Shadowheart isn't even a little bit attractive. Thoughts?

[Gaius]

Eh, the stats are really all around the place when you try to translate them to real world. Charisma is the ability to charm, not necessarily look stunning.

Of course, IRL being a bombshell makes people put up with a behaviour ordinary people could not put off, but that's now how we usually use the term - it's more like the ability to charm with speech and interaction, I.E., charismatic (political) leaders or televangelists, etc.

The very idea that charisma (in game terms) is a single thing is also pretty silly. Someone being great at parties shouldn't translate as someone who can intimidate better. But oh well, it's an abstraction, social interactions are too complicated to realistically simulate.

[wtiger27]

A girl can be gorgeous and have the personality of a dirty washrag. Charisma is not the same thing as attractiveness. However, if a person is handsome and has high charisma, it can make them more desirable. That is how I look at it.

[Gaius]

Originally posted by wtiger27:

A girl can be gorgeous and have the personality of a dirty washrag. Charisma is not the same thing as attractiveness. However, if a person is handsome and has high charisma, it can make them more desirable. That is how I look at it.

Yeah, but that's not how D&D threats it. In other systems (GURPS comes to mind) it IS separate, and gives bonuses (and even negative bonuses to the same gender if you are TOO hot), but D&D just mix all "good at social interactions" and call it charisma.

[Maitrepof]

Dnd is an old system that often choose the simple way to do things and the oversimplification bring some wierdness. So in this case we got no beauty stat and all go into charisma that is the social stat.

[wtiger27]

Originally posted by Gaius:

Originally posted by wtiger27:

A girl can be gorgeous and have the personality of a dirty washrag. Charisma is not the same thing as attractiveness. However, if a person is handsome and has high charisma, it can make them more desirable. That is how I look at it.

Yeah, but that's not how D&D threats it. In other systems (GURPS comes to mind) it IS separate, and gives bonuses (and even negative bonuses to the same gender if you are TOO hot), but D&D just mix all "good at social interactions" and call it charisma.

I can see that. But you know, I play Baldur's Gate 3 for what it is to me. A group isometric RPG. Not being a big D&D fan. I know it is important for those who are fans, so not knocking it. But I wouldn't even know or care if something in the game is following the D&D rule set.

I look at Shadowheart as being gorgeous. She could have a Charisma rating of 8 and I wouldn't care. But I see your point, the game will treat it like it is important in some situations. Esp. when selling or buying for a better price. And of course, passing speech test based on the Charisma rating.

But really, I only care about Charisma for my custom char if it effects them in combat. Like for a warlock. Still do not understand how Charisma would affect that, but the info says it does, so I want it fairly high. lol.

[Gaius]

Originally posted by wtiger27:

Originally posted by Gaius:

Yeah, but that's not how D&D threats it. In other systems (GURPS comes to mind) it IS separate, and gives bonuses (and even negative bonuses to the same gender if you are TOO hot), but D&D just mix all "good at social interactions" and call it charisma.

I can see that. But you know, I play Baldur's Gate 3 for what it is to me. A group isometric RPG. Not being a big D&D fan. I know it is important for those who are fans, so not knocking it. But I wouldn't even know or care if something in the game is following the D&D rule set.

I look at Shadowheart as being gorgeous. She could have a Charisma rating of 8 and I wouldn't care. But I see your point, the game will treat it like it is important in some situations. Esp. when selling or buying for a better price. And of course, passing speech test based on the Charisma rating.

But really, I only care about Charisma for my custom char if it effects them in combat. Like for a warlock. Still do not understand how Charisma would affect that, but the info says it does, so I want it fairly high. lol.

Yeah, the last time I played D&D in a table it was 3.5 (4.0 was out but people hated it), I don't care a whole lot too, but with it being D&D as part of the marketing I feel it's a good decision to not change the system where not needed.

But I also feel the dissonance, specially when the game TELLS you Shadowheart is gorgeous (like when you talk to the dead fishermen in the starting beach).

[Popsicles]

D&D did have an optional rule for being atractive. Comeliness! It was an option in D&D 1e and 2e.

https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Comeliness

[Foolswalkin]

1st Ed Unearthed Arcana had a Comeliness stat. Not sure it helped much, as determining who is the most ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ party member in a game whose most detailed mechanics are around combat probably didn't change anyone's game table experience for the better.

Modern neuroscience tells us that else equal we tend to rank attractive people as smarter, more persuasive, etc. via the halo effect. But if, iunno, you can't make eye conact or avoid being suspicious and hostile that effect wears off really quick (like maybe you've got a DARK SECRET TO HIDE AND WHO KNOWS WHO IS A PART OF THE CONSPIRACY).

DnD 5e also doesn't divide e.g. Dexterity into "precision of fine motor control" and "speed of gross motor activation." Stats are a pretty crude yardstick of crunch over which you are free to add whatever fluff you want.

Edit: ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I'm too slow. Must be these old bones.

Tell you what I do miss, though. Deep Gnomes being able to summon earth elementals as a racial ability. Siddown and let grampa tell you all about it...

[Popsicles]

Originally posted by Maitrepof:

Dnd is an old system that often choose the simple way to do things and the oversimplification bring some wierdness. So in this case we got no beauty stat and all go into charisma that is the social stat.

Yes - and in the 'old' system there was the Comeliness stat. Most found it useless and it was dropped by 3e.

[Popsicles]

Originally posted by Foolswalkin:

Edit: ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I'm too slow. Must be these old bones.

Sorry I swooped in. You explained it well!

[Foolswalkin]

Originally posted by Balltin:

Originally posted by Foolswalkin:

Edit: ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I'm too slow. Must be these old bones.

Sorry I swooped in. You explained it well!

Nah sir/ma'am/yer honor. I respect your ninja reflexes.

[sevenfoothamster]

Charisma doesn't really relate to physical attractiveness anymore since it would unduly make it more difficult to play a Sorcerer as a race like goblin or orc.
More and more game systems are dropping "attractiveness" as a stat because it's just so nebulous, especially since it's anthrocentric.
If you wanted to do it right, a goblin should have higher Charisma when dealing with other goblins than when dealing with humans and vice versa.
So charisma translates less as "being pretty" and more about "making yourself attractive" as well as "force of personality". You can have a lot of natural beauty but if you don't have the know-how to brush your hair and strike a fetching pose, it's not gonna do you any good.

[Dexter]

Charisma represents ability to sweet talk, intimidate and overall "trustworthy piramid scheme to invest your money into", while good looks can help with that, Charisma is not "beauty" stat.

[Lightning Mcree]

Originally posted by Gaius:

But really, I only care about Charisma for my custom char if it effects them in combat. Like for a warlock. Still do not understand how Charisma would affect that, but the info says it does, so I want it fairly high. lol.

Charisma is the stat that affects your spellcasting as a warlock, essentially it's part of what determines your spell save DC (What the enemies need to roll to succeed) and your spell to hit modifier (What you would add to the d20 to hit an enemy with a spell). Your spell save DC is a base 8+Charisma Modifier+Proficiency bonus, which means at the start its probably somewhere around 12 or 13, which is what an enemy would need to total for a saving throw against one of your spells. And for your spells like eldritch blast you'd add around a +4 or a +5 to your d20 rolls to hit an enemy, that's what the percentages boil down to, the range of where you hit or don't hit based on your numbers and their numbers. I hope this helps to clarify why it's important.

This goes the same for each of the spellcasting classes
Int casters
Wizard
Eldritch Knight (Fighter Subclass)
Arcane Trickster (Rogue Subclass
Artificer(Won't be there at launch probably maybe a future DLC)

Wis casters
Druid
Cleric
Ranger

Charisma casters
Bard
Warlock
Paladin
Sorcerer

[Gaius]

Originally posted by Lightning Mcree:

Originally posted by Gaius:

But really, I only care about Charisma for my custom char if it effects them in combat. Like for a warlock. Still do not understand how Charisma would affect that, but the info says it does, so I want it fairly high. lol.

Charisma is the stat that affects your spellcasting as a warlock, essentially it's part of what determines your spell save DC (What the enemies need to roll to succeed) and your spell to hit modifier (What you would add to the d20 to hit an enemy with a spell). Your spell save DC is a base 8+Charisma Modifier+Proficiency bonus, which means at the start its probably somewhere around 12 or 13, which is what an enemy would need to total for a saving throw against one of your spells. And for your spells like eldritch blast you'd add around a +4 or a +5 to your d20 rolls to hit an enemy, that's what the percentages boil down to, the range of where you hit or don't hit based on your numbers and their numbers. I hope this helps to clarify why it's important.

This goes the same for each of the spellcasting classes
Int casters
Wizard
Eldritch Knight (Fighter Subclass)
Arcane Trickster (Rogue Subclass
Artificer(Won't be there at launch probably maybe a future DLC)

Wis casters
Druid
Cleric
Ranger

Charisma casters
Bard
Warlock
Paladin
Sorcerer

you misquoted me, it was the other guy's comment, but still, I believe his point was how the hell being more charismatic makes a fireball more likely to hit.