The Real Problem With BG3

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

There's no real freedom to explore.

Every map is a tightly constrained path that Larian leads you down. A yellow bricked road.

Occasionally you get to choose to go right or left, but you can never leave the path.

There's little player agency in this game.

From their near morbid insistence on playing an Origin character (can't create a fully custom party from start - and even once you can hire custom characters, their race and background are locked), to the literal physical constraints of tightly woven pathways, and dialog choices which funnel you into the same result regardless of what you choose (the first and most immediate that comes to mind is Kagha who will inevitably - as long as you don't attack - always push you towards getting Zevlor and the tieflings to leave, no matter what you say).

Larian leads the player by the nose.

[Яeplicant]

Messaggio originale di BrokenHeaven:

Messaggio originale di Vixzian:

Plenty but in terms of RPGs which are generally bound by story? None or next to none. Now that said BG3 still sits on rails. You are ultimately drawn to the same very few conclusions. It's the illusion of choice.

And that's it. BG3 is the best as it can get currently. There might be a day when AI development is good enough we will have true freedom in game but currently all paths are coded by developer.

It'll still be on rails guided by an AI but in a different direction by curtesy of randomly generated quests and such.

There is no such thing as true freedom. Past, present and future. You're just changing the leash, so to speak.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Messaggio originale di Vixzian:

Messaggio originale di GriffinPilgrim:

That's not being on rails. The entire metaphor of a railroad means you have a single route to follow and you cannot deviate from that route, as opposed to taking the same journey by, say, car or on foot, where you're still going from point A to point B but you can change your route between them at any time.
Something like a CoD singleplayer campaign would be on rails. You get a set of levels you have to complete in the same order and the objectives in those levels also have to be completed in the same order.
The problem here is one of only looking at things in extremes. As if you have to have absolute freedom to do anything at any time and if you don't then the game is on rails.

That is exactly what is on rails. Just as the OP pointed out. So what this is really is you trying to tell everyone else what you define as on rails or not and frankly I'm not concerned with what you think is on rails. What I an concerned with is the game actually being on rails.... which it is. Being on rails has always allowed for deviation the importance is if the primary route is singular with no alternatives. Stops along the way has nothing to do with being on rails...that's what side quests do. 'On rails' no longer means a situation where a game takes control of your character to force them down something... that has been obsolete for quite some time.

BG3's story is on rails as you are led down one path to the same inevitable conclusion. There are side quests and subplots that are not on rails where multiple conclusions are possible. It's not open world or sandbox.

On rails has also always been associated with a theme park ride like a rollercoaster than a train btw though the below link depicts a train rail for some odd reason.

https://medium.com/rpguide/sandbox-vs-rail-games-38999c64cb34

A rollercoaster also doesn't allow you to take different routes between point A and point B.
If your definition of being "on rails" includes literally any form of story structure then that definition has been made so broad as to be useless.
There are things existing between on rails and sandbox games. BG3 is not a directionless sandbox but neither is it on rails.

[alanc9]

And it's not like there's anything wrong with the internal logic of how the ending plays out.

I don't see how allying with Gortash could have worked in the situation as written, for instance. Most other railroading choices are like that one.

They could have written something different, of course. But they didn't. Which leaves BG3 somewhere in the middle of contemporary games on that particular spectrum.

How much this matters is one of those personal tastes things.

[strangerism]

Having just played and just reached Baldurs Gate I tend to agree with the OP. The game feels very linear as a crpg game with how the maps and the story moves forwards.

It feels like you need to clear the content from each map and move to the next. I guess this type of design it's inherent to the story of the characters and could not be done in other way

On the other end pretty much every crpg is like this but I think others managed to hide this in a better way.
For instance in BG1 and BG2 the world feels more open and epic since from the start, despite there also having maps that needs to be cleared out. I don't know how to explain this.

In BG2, for example, the first act in the city of Amn, Athkatla, you feel pretty much adventurers going about your own business, even though you just came out from a prologue that has sets you on a destined path very clearly. Despite that, you will be spending many hours wandering around and discovering the world before the overarching story catches up.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Messaggio originale di strangerism:

Having just played and just reached Baldurs Gate I tend to agree with the OP. The game feels very linear as a crpg game with how the maps and the story moves forwards.

It feels like you need to clear the content from each map and move to the next. I guess this type of design it's inherent to the story of the characters and could not be done in other way

On the other end pretty much every crpg is like this but I think others managed to hide this in a better way.
For instance in BG1 and BG2 the world feels more open and epic since from the start, despite there also having maps that needs to be cleared out. I don't know how to explain this.

In BG2, for example, the first act in the city of Amn, Athkatla, you feel pretty much adventurers going about your own business, even though you just came out from a prologue that has sets you on a destined path very clearly. Despite that, you will be spending many hours wandering around and discovering the world before the overarching story catches up.

Yep because the main plot is on rails. Now I disagree with you on BG1 and BG2 as those games are more linear in my opinion but I do get your take on that. But essentially BG3 is a game with a plot that is on rails (as it should be considering it's Larian acting as the DM in a table top game) while other aspects are more sandbox in terms of how you can run into side quests and sub plots. The map itself is definitely not open world or sandbox being that it's bordered between Acts and has little to nothing of value as a means to provide any creative substance on it's own and the encounters are finite.

[Narky]

Messaggio originale di Lord Adorable:

Messaggio originale di Cassidy0z:

Nothing about Cyberpunk is a railroad. how many initial paths based on your class choice and while those lead to the same intersection it doesnt change that how you get to your endings and I did say endings can be different as well. Interactive map with constant things going on in real time. Multiple endings that do not go through the same pathway. Some do but not all.

Please dont make me block you as well for trolling.

So.. you're saying Cyberpunk is railroaded.

Yep.

There's only two definitive endings in the base game of 2077.

Dead or dying.

Phantom Liberty introduces an amazing alternative!

Cured but handicapped as far as V's career goes (their body can no longer handle implants). A pretty big L as far as 2077 lore goes, where Cybernetic augmentation is the norm.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Messaggio originale di Black Magic:

Messaggio originale di Lord Adorable:

So.. you're saying Cyberpunk is railroaded.

Yep.

There's only two definitive endings in the base game of 2077.

Dead or dying.

Phantom Liberty introduces an amazing alternative!

Cured but handicapped as far as V's career goes (their body can no longer handle implants). A pretty big L as far as 2077 lore goes, where Cybernetic augmentation is the norm.

A complete lie.

[Narky]

Messaggio originale di Vixzian:

Messaggio originale di Black Magic:

Yep.

There's only two definitive endings in the base game of 2077.

Dead or dying.

Phantom Liberty introduces an amazing alternative!

Cured but handicapped as far as V's career goes (their body can no longer handle implants). A pretty big L as far as 2077 lore goes, where Cybernetic augmentation is the norm.

A complete lie.

Play the game.

1) Stored in Mikoshi (you're an Engram. You're dead. The Devil Ending).
2) Off with Alt beyond the Blackwall letting Johnny take your body. (You're an Engram. You're dead. Even Johnny recognises he's dead before then).
3) Off with the Adelcaldos. (You have 6 months to live. It's terminal).
4) V shoots themselves. (You're dead).
5) V partakes in a final Space Heist at the behest of Mr Blue Eyes after being 'cured' (you have 6 months to live. It's terminal).
6) Phantom Liberty: the NUSA cures you but informs you that you were in a 2 year Coma and your body can no longer receive signals from cybernetic implants or it'd harm and potentially kill them. V is seen walking off to join the crowd of ordinary people, fading away.

Sounds like...

Dead, dying, or gone.

Please stop ban evading, Cassidy.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Messaggio originale di Black Magic:

Messaggio originale di Vixzian:

A complete lie.

Play the game.

1) Stored in Mikoshi (you're an Engram. You're dead. The Devil Ending).
2) Off with Alt beyond the Blackwall letting Johnny take your body. (You're an Engram. You're dead. Even Johnny recognises he's dead before then).
3) Off with the Adelcaldos. (You have 6 months to live. It's terminal).
4) V shoots themselves. (You're dead).
5) V partakes in a final Space Heist at the behest of Mr Blue Eyes after being 'cured' (you have 6 months to live. It's terminal).
6) Phantom Liberty: the NUSA cures you but informs you that you were in a 2 year Coma and your body can no longer receive signals from cybernetic implants or it'd harm and potentially kill them. V is seen walking off to join the crowd of ordinary people, fading away.

Sounds like...

Dead, dying, or gone.

Played the game. Anyone with internet access can just go see that your statement is a lie or they can play the game themselves. I'd also direct you to the cyberpunk forums to explain there how there's only two endings.

[Hobocop]

Messaggio originale di strangerism:

In BG2, for example, the first act in the city of Amn, Athkatla, you feel pretty much adventurers going about your own business, even though you just came out from a prologue that has sets you on a destined path very clearly. Despite that, you will be spending many hours wandering around and discovering the world before the overarching story catches up.

Not really seeing how running around doing adventuring stuff to make enough money before the plot can progress is significantly more open or 'going about your own business' than running around doing adventuring stuff while gathering clues about the predicament your characters have found themselves in.

[strangerism]

Messaggio originale di Hobocop:

Messaggio originale di strangerism:

In BG2, for example, the first act in the city of Amn, Athkatla, you feel pretty much adventurers going about your own business, even though you just came out from a prologue that has sets you on a destined path very clearly. Despite that, you will be spending many hours wandering around and discovering the world before the overarching story catches up.

Not really seeing how running around doing adventuring stuff to make enough money before the plot can progress is significantly more open or 'going about your own business' than running around doing adventuring stuff while gathering clues about the predicament your characters have found themselves in.

well I have already said in my post that other crpg have the same issue, but somehow manage to mask it with story devices or other ways

For instance in BG2 at the beginning you focus on mini adventures that thematically have nothing to do with your predicament beside making you a bit more rich which helps then towards that same predicament you were stuck at the beginning. These adventures moves you around the world (city and outdoors), thus adding more context to the world you live in, at the same time as you progress through the story.

If we analyze the first act in BG3, it's just druids, goblins and refugees revolving around the same conflict and you are in the middle of it. Sure, there are a lot of side quests but they all spin around each other, they just provide alternate ways to tackle the same issue.
You only get a glimpse of the world outside yours, by the books you find and some encounters (factions etc)

[Pyromaiden]

Messaggio originale di Cassidy0z:

Messaggio originale di The_Dipl0mat:

Yeah, that's the vibes I'm getting

The steam bullies are back. As usual whenever Vix hits them with facts they can't refute and so then they have to go into attack swarm mode. You'd think you all would get tired of this bruised ego trip thing you have going on. It's old.

Shouldn't talk about yourself in the third person. That's creepy.

[Narky]

Messaggio originale di Pyromania™ (She/Her):

Messaggio originale di Cassidy0z:

The steam bullies are back. As usual whenever Vix hits them with facts they can't refute and so then they have to go into attack swarm mode. You'd think you all would get tired of this bruised ego trip thing you have going on. It's old.

Shouldn't talk about yourself in the third person. That's creepy.

There was one other person who regularly did this and now I'm very, very certain that person is permanently community-banned on steam.

[Estevan Valladares]

I wonder why people turn anything into identity politics these days.

[Pyromaiden]

Messaggio originale di Estevan Valladares:

I wonder why people turn anything into identity politics these days.

If you don't like identity politics then stop politicizing identities.