Earth paralelism

[Jaeleth]

We usually consider RPG to happen in a ""medieval"" setup. We do that because they have swords and bows as the main weapon. Some people point out that that setup makes certain... Character attitudes, "improper" for the era while others point out that it's a fantasy world, it has magic, it is not medieval so... anything goes.

Well.. Having as an hobby historical re-creation in real life (yeah, one of those dudes that bother wearing heavy chain mails over gambesons in hot summer days) I am very picky about realism. So...

I think D&D, from its start, tried to recreate a mix of human eras ranging from, maybe post-roman empire, that is, from 500 to 1500. Mainly european. But we have to consider several issues here:

1. Magic, and magical creatures derives from human legends from every culture on Earth. Plus some invented. That's why we have Elves (European), Djinn (Arabic), Dragons (European - Asian), Couatl (South American) etc...

2. Weaponry also derives from several cultures... Scimitar (arabic), Longsword and Broadsword (European), Katana (Japanese)

But medieval (or equivalent) ages didn't occur exactly in the same timeline in Asia and Arabia as in Europe. However we tend to consider the 500-1500 European timeline as the reference.

Let us consider that then. The 500-1500 timeline is quite a large one weapons changed a LOT throughout those times in Europe. But then we have gunpowder... Gunpowder was invented in the 9th century in China, 9th century is EARLY middle age in Europe, but in Europe was only used in the 13th century... If we take a look at the House of Gond inventions though, matters complicate even further... Much of the Gondian "technology" is magically powered so we can dismiss that. But some, like the telescope (BG2) is not, well... The telescope was invented in Europe in the 17th century...

Baldur's Gate city as it is depicted in BG3, "reminds me" of what the capital of my country, Lisbon, should look in the late XVII th, early XVIII th centuries (minus the multiple "alien" species, magic, and the steel watch, lol).

That said what is your opinion on which Earth equivalent era should we place BG3 events?
I would say, maybe, 17th century, Earth. But then again, there are no firearms in D&D, first firearms were 14th century in Europe... (minus magic, of course).

You?

[Mormacil]

None, it's a silly excercise. There is no era that fits at all. Forgotten Realms is a hodgepodge of ideas mixed together liberally. It's in no way shape or form meant to represent our world. It organically grew as the homebrew setting of teenagers into a more proper product but we still have self inserts as Elminster.

None of it lines up with history, I would lean closer to early Renaissance than anything medieval but even then it's a bad fit.

Also aren't there official firearms now as an optional addition?

[Teskal]

There are firearms in the Forgotten Realms. Gond helped after the Time of Troubles to produce and use them savely. But even before it, they existed already.

I have no idea, why it is 150-200 years later not already widespread in use. Ok, maybe fire and lightning spells could a reason not wanting to wear extra explosives.

[Jaeleth]

Originally posted by Mormacil:

None, it's a silly excercise. There is no era that fits at all. Forgotten Realms is a hodgepodge of ideas mixed together liberally. It's in no way shape or form meant to represent our world. It organically grew as the homebrew setting of teenagers into a more proper product but we still have self inserts as Elminster.

None of it lines up with history, I would lean closer to early Renaissance than anything medieval but even then it's a bad fit.

Also aren't there official firearms now as an optional addition?

Yes, I said it myself, but I am trying to find an upper cap to the mix. Early renaissance was also my suggestion but I am finding the main issue the absence of firearms (there might be others). We can certainly rule out 19th century and above because no combustion engines. Remember magic must be ignored, most gondian "tech" is fueled by magic. Firearms introduction brings the problem of making ALL the wonderful magic swords and maces and etc... useless. Well, then again, you couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with an early firearm.

[Jaeleth]

Originally posted by Teskal:

There are firearms in the Forgotten Realms. Gond helped after the Time of Troubles to produce and use them savely. But even before it, they existed already.

I have no idea, why it is 150-200 years later not already widespread in use. Ok, maybe fire and lightning spells could a reason not wanting to wear extra explosives.

Interesting to know. So the 17th century wouldn't be that bad of an assessment. They're not present in BG games though, curious.

[EricHVela]

You'll find technological curiosities in the Gond-worshipping Artificer-focused House of Wonders (found in Urmlaspyr far, far to the southeast of the Sword Coast) that rival Victorian-era Steampunk. Some of that influence is found in BG3 with a direct link to Gond.

The 5e DMG Chapter 9 has suggestions on how to bring sci-fi technology (or even just modern Earth technology) into a campaign.

Scattered around Toril, you'll find tribal communities with little-to-no technology, completely reliant on ritual magic.

The recommendation of what social/technologic settings to bring into D&D is "everything".

[Lani]

It's a Fantasy game and displays concurrently used weaponry and armour invented and used over a period of over 1700 years. The same for medicinal technologies and architectural contrivances. And all that portrayed through a jam-jar thick lens of modernism.
This conjunction of technologies from different historical eras and cultures is what typifies the Fantasy. Oh and Dragons!
It'd be impossible to point at any point in European history (or beyond that narrow scope, but you're correct in the European focus) as a best match as at no point in history did we ever do this. Except in 20th and 21st century entertainment. The older a city gets, the more architecture it might accrue from different time periods but real life practicality tends to demolish most of them.

[seeker1]

1. Faerun/FR/Toril is not Earth. No more than Tolkien's Middle-Earth is.
2. Fantasy genre riffs off medieval Europe but is not re-creating it. Medieval Europe did not have hobbits. Or REAL dragons even if they are in a lot of legends.
3. Tech level is all over the place. No doubt about it, there's a lot of steampunk level tech just in BG3 itself, like how about a submarine? Didn't exist in Middle Ages. Eberron setting has steampunk level firearms and artillery.
4. Final issue, and all I'll say on it cuz folks don't get it. Faerun doesn't have the morality or religion of medieval Europe. No, homosexuality was not tolerated (at least very openly) in medieval Europe. Yes, on Faerun, it's not the same.

[LordOfTheBread]

Did not hear about any giant brain conspiracy on earth, nor of spells you can launc once a day (or spells you can launch period), never met any demon or thiefling AFAIK....

So no.

[Teskal]

Originally posted by seeker1:

1. Faerun/FR/Toril is not Earth. No more than Tolkien's Middle-Earth is.

This is not correct. Middle-Earth is happening on Earth. It is a mythological time period on our earth, just like the greek or scandinavians have their own mythology on earth.

[Mormacil]

Originally posted by Teskal:

Originally posted by seeker1:

1. Faerun/FR/Toril is not Earth. No more than Tolkien's Middle-Earth is.

This is not correct. Middle-Earth is happening on Earth. It is a mythological time period on our earth, just like the greek or scandinavians have their own mythology on earth.

Arguably Middle Earth isn't Earth yet but it will become Earth.

[Certified Lawyer Boy]

I like this a lot.

In a more general context your observations really point out one of the main differences between fantasy and science fiction, and since BG3 is fantasy a lot of people are telling you that this is a futile exercice, but I think it's interesting.

Partaking in this experiment I personally would say that the period between the 6th to 8th century seems more accurate contextually for DnD, considering there are many great wars between empires, many invasions, new empires rising, old empires falling, old ideologies and religions being replaced by new ideologies and religions etc.

I attribute the advanced technology to magic and the presence of many different civilizations of literal unique races (elves, dwarves, humans etc.) who also intermingle often, thus innovating much faster.

[Jaeleth]

Originally posted by seeker1:

1. Faerun/FR/Toril is not Earth. No more than Tolkien's Middle-Earth is.
2. Fantasy genre riffs off medieval Europe but is not re-creating it. Medieval Europe did not have hobbits. Or REAL dragons even if they are in a lot of legends.
3. Tech level is all over the place. No doubt about it, there's a lot of steampunk level tech just in BG3 itself, like how about a submarine? Didn't exist in Middle Ages. Eberron setting has steampunk level firearms and artillery.
4. Final issue, and all I'll say on it cuz folks don't get it. Faerun doesn't have the morality or religion of medieval Europe. No, homosexuality was not tolerated (at least very openly) in medieval Europe. Yes, on Faerun, it's not the same.

1. Actually Tolkien's ME is quite different from Faerun, Tolkien's ME happens in a fantasy setup of ancient Earth (an Earth that never existed, of course). Tolkien himself made sure the parallelism was there and he picks his characters and background from old british islands folklore mixed with catholicism (he was) and his own personal experiences (WWI). Alas, that's why his world seems so real, many of his stories are interwined with old local legends and characters. And, note, Middle Earth is a closed setup with very specific rules defined by the author. You cannot go there and change a pebble from its place without breaking canon (as many did, so far).

2. Yes, that's what I said. Remove the magic. Consider the tech. find parallelism.

3. Definitely, but each time some "magical power source" is used to make the thing work you have to remove it from the analysis. Magic is not valid even nowadays.

4. Homosexuality existed since a long time, maybe since there are primates, however it was never openly accepted, but tolerated in many cultures, from ancient Greece to Roman Empire, there are even texts that suggest ONE Roman Emperor identified as a woman Marcus Aurelius Antoninus better known by his nicknames Elagabalus and Heliogabalus. He was a crazy dude and is "termination" was ordered by his grandmother and executed by his OWN pretorian guard (of all people, lol). Not because he was gay but because (XXI century wicked paralelism here) he thought the state should pay for his excesses and his contract (to life) was promptly terminated (lol). He his widely seen as one of the worse, if not the worst Roman Emperor ever and his short reign lasted from his 14th birthday to his 18th... Not because he was gay, but because he was... an idiot :D

As for Faerun we don't really know, of course. In fantasy games we cannot find a direct parallelism however, undeniably, games are invented by humans and parallelism is inevitable.
The most correct approach is to consider the early game deisgn as "canon" and build from there. As D&D manuals, from the Gigax era, do not speak anything on homosexuality, we cannot really say whether it was tolerated on Faerun or not. On the other hand we should certainly not make it at a par with XXI th century acceptance (or even beyond it) that would be even worse than consider the apparent parallel to the 1700's. Perhaps the best would be to tolerate it but keep it somewhat discreet, implicit, in average that would be the correct for ALL eras we know, including XXI th century, methinks.

[Jaeleth]

Originally posted by Teskal:

Originally posted by seeker1:

1. Faerun/FR/Toril is not Earth. No more than Tolkien's Middle-Earth is.

This is not correct. Middle-Earth is happening on Earth. It is a mythological time period on our earth, just like the greek or scandinavians have their own mythology on earth.

Correct

[Jaeleth]

Originally posted by LordOfTheBread:

Did not hear about any giant brain conspiracy on earth, nor of spells you can launc once a day (or spells you can launch period), never met any demon or thiefling AFAIK....

So no.

As I said in my original post. You have to remove magic and fantasy creatures to make the analysis. Consider only humans and the tech level. Do not consider tech which somehow, is fueled by a magical device or power source. Just plain hardware and humans.

[Jaeleth]

Originally posted by EricHVela:

You'll find technological curiosities in the Gond-worshipping Artificer-focused House of Wonders (found in Urmlaspyr far, far to the southeast of the Sword Coast) that rival Victorian-era Steampunk. Some of that influence is found in BG3 with a direct link to Gond.

The 5e DMG Chapter 9 has suggestions on how to bring sci-fi technology (or even just modern Earth technology) into a campaign.

Scattered around Toril, you'll find tribal communities with little-to-no technology, completely reliant on ritual magic.

The recommendation of what social/technologic settings to bring into D&D is "everything".

I'm trying to find the upper cap. Even on XXI th century Earth there are people living on the stone age (Sentinel Islands). And for that, the exercise is to remove all magic and fantasy creatures. Consider only humans and artifacts NOT fueled by any sort of magical device, plain hardware.