Why Subclasses Are Objectively Bad In BG 3

[Nifty]

Keeping this as by the numbers and objective as possible:

Let's use the Eldricht Knight as a case study:

1. Can cast up to level 2 spells fully leveled
2. Can't even cast a fireball
3. Could cast a fireball if multi-classed

Okay so why does this sub class exist?

How about a Wild Magic Barbiarian:

1. Can refill mage casts up to level 3
2. Still can't cast a fire ball
3. Could cast a fireball if multi-classed

Okay so why does this sub class exist?

Let's take sub classes in Pillars of Eternity 2

How about a magic archer?

1. can imbue arrows with magic
2. can fire arrows imbued with fire ball
3. can imbue higher level spells at increased levels

Remains competitive with multi-classing options.

This is just a theory but after the open-beta where a lot of the sub-classes hadn't been designed or released yet they kind of got crammed into the game last minute.

Because even if you take a two second read of the descriptions for some of these, the juice just isn't worth the squeeze folks, and that's what we call down bad for an rpg.

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by Nifty:

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Hey at least they're better than kits in BG2 and subclasses in Pathfinder games.

Some of those are "give up all your useful class skills. in exchange you can make muffins twice per day"

Fair, I kind of just took for granted proper balancing for this stuff with Obsidian, and I also believe the kickstarter guy for Pillars worked on BG2.

For me a lot of the fun I have with RPG's is with specialization offering new avenues for play that aren't available otherwise in an RPG.

It's not very fun to go to youtube and see solo tactician mode with a Monk.

A monk what?

oh just like the default you click one button for being better than all other monk subclasses.

Cool beans

Huh? First off in BG 3 you always have a subclass, it's not optional, but they're all purely beneficial.

And secondly it's good design to not make the basic class irrelevant if it's an option. It's a bit of a flaw in game design when there's a strictly better subclass and you can still pick the main class

So I don't really follow the issue here. Specialization can be good while the default class is also good.

[Brady4444]

The issues with the subclasses in 5e seem to be baked into the game. They've released many books trying to fix things by changing existing subclasses (or making new ones). But Larian mostly stuck to what is available in the players handbook. It is what it is.

[LordOfTheBread]

I can objetively say you';e wrong, sun-clases make good classes great.

[Aldain]

Eldritch Knight is worse in BG3 because every class can use scrolls, which normally is a benefit of half/quarter casters over pure martial classes.

With that benefit gone the only niche an Eldritch Knight has left is being one of THREE (sub)classes in the game that actually uses Int as more than a save/dump/skillblob stat.

Signed, an Eldritch Knight fan.

[eRe4s3r]

More fuel for the problem is that BG3 spams you with scrolls, overpowered items, elixiers etc that all rob functionality previously only found from classes. (like goodberries, misty step, bless, bane, heal etc.) while at the same time not implementing other rules like attunement, racial stats and multi-class stat restrictions.

And the crafting system is also borked, as crafting is an EXPENSIVE thing in 5e, crafting potions isn't something you can do while standing around for 5 seconds that's something involving rolls every day at the start of rest.

It's all adding up ;)

[northernwater]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Eldritch Knight is worse in BG3 because every class can use scrolls, which normally is a benefit of half/quarter casters over pure martial classes.

I agree the ubiquity of scrolls is a problem for the game, but ...

Every class can not use scrolls powerfully though. Ability points other than STR are hard to come by and building a strong caster takes a commitment to choices in that direction. Gear is another choice made one way or the other.

For example with eldritch knight let's say you want to commit great physical damage well you then forgo spell power. If you want great spell power you forgo great physical power.

[Popsicles]

OP speaks as if all spellcasters are only worth a salt if they cast fireball.

IF you cannot figure out the usefulness of certain spells that make an EK a great sub classs, then you need to read and play more D&D.

EK gets shield, mirror image, jump, misty step... among many other useful spells. Spells are created for more than just damage output.

[northernwater]

Originally posted by eRe4s3r:

More fuel for the problem is that BG3 spams you with scrolls, overpowered items, elixiers etc that all rob functionality previously only found from classes. (like goodberries, misty step, bless, bane, heal etc.) while at the same time not implementing other rules like attunement, racial stats and multi-class stat restrictions.

And the crafting system is also borked, as crafting is an EXPENSIVE thing in 5e, crafting potions isn't something you can do while standing around for 5 seconds that's something involving rolls every day at the start of rest.

It's all adding up ;)

Especially in act 3. It is ridiculous the amount of elixirs and scrolls you can get.

[northernwater]

Originally posted by Popsicles:

EK gets shield, mirror image, jump, misty step... among many other useful spells. Spells are created for more than just damage output.

Those spells don't require Spell Save DC or Spell Attack. In short they don't use the spell casting ability.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by northernwater:

I agree the ubiquity of scrolls is a problem for the game, but ...

Every class can not use scrolls powerfully though. Ability points other than STR are hard to come by and building a strong caster takes a commitment to choices in that direction. Gear is another choice made one way or the other.

For example with eldritch knight you let's say you want to commit great physical damage well you then forgo spell power. If you want great spell power you forgo great physical power.

True, but having access period normally is something that made them unique at the very least.

Also there's several spells that don't really care about the caster's stats; Magic Missile for cherry tapping near dead enemies without fail, Shield for tanking up in emergencies, Grease for reasonable CC, and so on.

I'd say that nobody picks Eldritch Knight to be a powerful caster, but rather to take advantage of the surprisingly reliable basic spells added to the usual "I'm going to hit them til they die" approach of Fighter.

[Hellsteeth30]

Not like the game requires super powerful optimised builds, it's not the Pathfinder games.

My Duergar wild magic Barb is having the time of his life. Great fun.

[Lani]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Hey at least they're better than kits in BG2 and subclasses in Pathfinder games.

Some of those are "give up all your useful class skills. in exchange you can make muffins twice per day"

Wait, I can make MUFFINS in Pathfinder CRPGs. What class/subclass?
I need to know. For, reasons!

[Popsicles]

Originally posted by northernwater:

Originally posted by Popsicles:

EK gets shield, mirror image, jump, misty step... among many other useful spells. Spells are created for more than just damage output.

Those spells don't require Spell Save DC or Spell Attack. In short they don't use the spell casting ability.

Which is a boon no? You do not have to waste points in INT.

[yuzhonglu]

Anyone who doesn't recognize that Eldritch Knight is one of the better subclasses in the game is a noob.

An Eldritch Knight is fighter with all of the useful non-combat/ ritual spells of a wizard and SHIELD, none of which require int to hit. Longstrider/ feather fall / invis / enlarge / arcane lock/ magic missile/ mage armor / see invis, etc, without needing a feat or a dip into wizard.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

Anyone who doesn't recognize that Eldritch Knight is one of the better subclasses in the game is a noob.

Let's not kid ourselves, it's far from the best, but also far from the worst.

Also because a Battle Master can use scrolls in BG3 you basically get the best of both worlds in regards to utility spells and Battle Master's walloping power so they're kind of hurt by that as well.