Did you guys know swords weren't actually used much in medieval Europe?

[Amplifier]

BG3 got me interested in the medieval era so I did some digging up. Contrary to what medieval fantasy games like BG3, Witcher, Skyrim etc. likes to portray, swords were actually the rarity not the norm. They were mainly only wielded by knights not your typical infantry foot soldier. Most infantry only used spears for battle.

It's pretty funny considering when you think of this kinda setting, the instant thing that comes to your mind is a sword when it's not. Swords were also impractical against spears, since spears could cover more distance without putting you in harm's way.

Also funny how even games that claim to be historically accurate like Kingdom Come Deliverance commit wrongly this same misrepresentation of swords..

[AusarTheVile]

To add to the general conversation, swords weren't used much in a field battle or early stages of sieges mainly because spears outclassed them in both formation fighting and 1v1 fighting, once shieldwalls with seaxes went out of fashion, spears really dominated the scene. However, once you're through a wall and everything is chaos, or if you're being mugged in a back alley brawl, a sword would really be your weapon of choice, either a longsword or a rapier and buckler would be common sidearms just for people walking around big cities(the latter usually associated with people actually looking for a fight). However, in games like the witcher, baldur's gate 3, etc, you aren't professional soldiers in sieges or pitched battles, you're adventurers who often need tools that can adapt to many different situations, hence why the use of a sword rears its ugly head again (joking, I adore swords and have been a HEMA practitioner for 3 years now). you wouldn't see infantry blocks of longswordmen or people armed with an arming sword and kite shield usually because of a lack of reach, but mixed arms were often used, Doppelsoldners were soldiers used by the Holy Roman Empire in the 16th century in combination with a pike block, they would be armed with Zweihanders (greatswords) and would stand in the front lines to batter aside an opposing pike block's pikes, allowing their side to gain the advantage and, on occassion, even break the formation with a controlled "thrust" of the formation. Swords had their time and place both in wartime and times of peace, and I'd honestly say the best touch of historical accuracy that Baldur's Gate has is giving all the guards halberds, since they would be the swiss army knife tool of choice for a city guard of the time, able to establish cordons, create fire breaks, break up fights non-lethally and look damn imposing all at the same time :)

[AusarTheVile]

Originally posted by Dork_Stalker_310:

Speaking of which, I wonder why fantasy games avoid spears this much? Most of the time they are implemented, they are really underwhellming - that is, when they are even present in the game in a first place. I can think of very limited number of exceptions, like Nioh 2, where spears are actually very strong.
I'm not an expert, but considering that warfare has mostly evolved around the idea of allowing people to stab their opponents without getting stabbed back, it seems that spears are pretty underused.
Although I do admit that swords look cooler, so probably that's the reason.

Spears often lack the "mystique" of swords and some people take issue with that. A hunk of wood with a pointy end people often have lower views on than a hunk of metal with a pointy end (see the number of people who think swords could just chop through spears. Spoiler alert, they can't). if we want to go with a real world application, spears would be less effective in group fights than swords purely because your main attack is "thrust" which, while deadly to one person, gives his mates an opportunity to rush you. And therein lies the big issue really, while you can stab a guy without being stabbed back, the design concept for spears usually relies on a couple of your mates keeping his mates at bay while you pull your spear out of your erstwhile enemy and then get back to helping them, in a group fight which games often put you in to make you feel strong and badass, spears would kill a guy quick, but then need time to "pull back" (also ig that in fantasy settings with extra durable enemies, being able to decapitate someone with a sword adds that little extra peace of mind lol)

[lordmilier]

Originally posted by AusarTheVile:

Originally posted by lordmilier:

What is is based/inspired on then? You could have fooled me with all of titles, armor weapons and even buildings that very much look like they took all their homework from the medieval times.

Its based on DnD, which in turn is based on fantasy depictions of mythical creatures and stories which in turn were based on the folklore of medieval times which, you could argue, were based in turn on folklore from Anglo-Saxon and Viking time periods. The weaponry, armament etc would be reminiscent of Medieval Europe, but notice the lack of Billhooks, misericordes, half swording techniques etc? Swords are cool and romantic, been so ever since King Arthur's legend, Spears are a hallmark of weaponry and daggers are reminiscent of skulduggery. Faerun is, ultimately, its own thing with its own history built around a world where magic and monsters exist, the closest examples we have on what a world with swords and armour and magic would look like irl is medieval times, hence why a lot of the titles, armour, weapons and buildings are reminiscent of those times. but generally historical realism in these kinds of games is lacking, and usually glosses over the intricacies of historical combat and social structure for ease of storytelling and to let them make their own thing (I still want to see half swording used in a game though)

A lot of words to say it was based of Medieval times if it was concerned with not being compared to actual Medieval times IRL it should have put at least 5% effort into establishing it´s own hierarchies and inventing it´s own weapons and it´s own armor maybe it´s own architecture would help it as well.

I know for a fact that DnD is older than I am but I do know one thing in many cases it feels like a 10 year old was involved in making it´s worlds and lore due to how lazy it is. I personally find it very hard to take the setting of DnD seriously almost at all.

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by OK:

Erm it is? Medieval Europe literally is the very basis of fantasy games, and all stemming from LOTR. It's kind of funny the fantasy genre is so popular yet most people don't even seem to realize what historical period it's based upon. Like seriously?

This is hilarious to people who actually know history.

I know history and it's stupid if you think it's not. Go do a poll asking the general public which time period they think high fantasy is based on and I can assure you 99.99% of them will say medieval Europe.

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by AusarTheVile:

Originally posted by lordmilier:

What is is based/inspired on then? You could have fooled me with all of titles, armor weapons and even buildings that very much look like they took all their homework from the medieval times.

Its based on DnD, which in turn is based on fantasy depictions of mythical creatures and stories which in turn were based on the folklore of medieval times which, you could argue, were based in turn on folklore from Anglo-Saxon and Viking time periods. The weaponry, armament etc would be reminiscent of Medieval Europe, but notice the lack of Billhooks, misericordes, half swording techniques etc? Swords are cool and romantic, been so ever since King Arthur's legend, Spears are a hallmark of weaponry and daggers are reminiscent of skulduggery. Faerun is, ultimately, its own thing with its own history built around a world where magic and monsters exist, the closest examples we have on what a world with swords and armour and magic would look like irl is medieval times, hence why a lot of the titles, armour, weapons and buildings are reminiscent of those times. but generally historical realism in these kinds of games is lacking, and usually glosses over the intricacies of historical combat and social structure for ease of storytelling and to let them make their own thing (I still want to see half swording used in a game though)

You just confirmed yourself it's indeed from medieval Europe lmao

What else era and continent the heck you think comes closest?? Middle East? Far East Asia?? Antarctica? Come on lol

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by OK:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

This is hilarious to people who actually know history.

I know history and it's stupid if you think it's not. Go do a poll asking the general public which time period they think high fantasy is based on and I can assure you 99.99% of them will say medieval Europe.

Objective reality is not dictated by consensus.

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by OK:

I know history and it's stupid if you think it's not. Go do a poll asking the general public which time period they think high fantasy is based on and I can assure you 99.99% of them will say medieval Europe.

Objective reality is not dictated by consensus.

You still havent even substantiated your comment at all. If it's not based on medieval Europe, then WTF you think it's based on??

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by OK:

I know history and it's stupid if you think it's not. Go do a poll asking the general public which time period they think high fantasy is based on and I can assure you 99.99% of them will say medieval Europe.

Objective reality is not dictated by consensus.

And this is wrong. There's nothing objective about this argument in the first place. It's subjective to begin with. You're being absurdly illogical here by perpetuating your own stance as the 'objective' one here. Do you even know what objective means

[Quillithe]

It's at least loosely based on Europe from medieval to reinassance times.

Well, except the parts that aren't like Kara-tur and stuff

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

It's at least loosely based on Europe from medieval to reinassance times.

Well, except the parts that aren't like Kara-tur and stuff

Mostly renaissance, really. Plate armor, knights in shining armor, and even the "fantasy English" (Shakespearean English) they use are all from the renaissance. But most people don't really know the difference between medieval and renaissance, they just kinda blend it all together.

[ZSZ]

What is blud talking about

[Bray of Cats]

Originally posted by ZSZ:

What is blud talking about

This is just an ''I want to be a main character!'' thread, unsub while you can!

[kingonads]

Originally posted by lordmilier:

Originally posted by AusarTheVile:

Its based on DnD, which in turn is based on fantasy depictions of mythical creatures and stories which in turn were based on the folklore of medieval times which, you could argue, were based in turn on folklore from Anglo-Saxon and Viking time periods. The weaponry, armament etc would be reminiscent of Medieval Europe, but notice the lack of Billhooks, misericordes, half swording techniques etc? Swords are cool and romantic, been so ever since King Arthur's legend, Spears are a hallmark of weaponry and daggers are reminiscent of skulduggery. Faerun is, ultimately, its own thing with its own history built around a world where magic and monsters exist, the closest examples we have on what a world with swords and armour and magic would look like irl is medieval times, hence why a lot of the titles, armour, weapons and buildings are reminiscent of those times. but generally historical realism in these kinds of games is lacking, and usually glosses over the intricacies of historical combat and social structure for ease of storytelling and to let them make their own thing (I still want to see half swording used in a game though)

A lot of words to say it was based of Medieval times if it was concerned with not being compared to actual Medieval times IRL it should have put at least 5% effort into establishing it´s own hierarchies and inventing it´s own weapons and it´s own armor maybe it´s own architecture would help it as well.

I know for a fact that DnD is older than I am but I do know one thing in many cases it feels like a 10 year old was involved in making it´s worlds and lore due to how lazy it is. I personally find it very hard to take the setting of DnD seriously almost at all.

Gary Gygax one of the creators of D&D, did not base the game off of medieval Europe. It was based loosely off of Tolkien's work with the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Which in its self is a even looser interpretation of European folklore. Mostly Anglo-Saxon, British, and Celtic folklore.

So to say D&D is based off of Medieval Europe would be false.. but not completely.

[Dork_Stalker_310]

Originally posted by AusarTheVile:

if we want to go with a real world application, spears would be less effective in group fights than swords purely because your main attack is "thrust" which, while deadly to one person, gives his mates an opportunity to rush you.

Group fights are a great point, I haven't thought about it this way. Technically, I guess you can implement a pole-based weapon with a cutting edge, like a glaive or a halberd, but that would be essentially a re-introduction of swords, just with a very long handle.

[seeker1]

Fantasy is not based on medieval Europe. Which is not to say a lot of fantasy riffs off it.

Conan the Barbarian took place in the (supposed) Hyborian Age, ten thousand years ago.
Technically, Lord of the Rings is set on our Earth, but in a time before recorded history.
The Barsoom tales of John Carter are set on Mars. A lot of fantasy takes place on different planets. Like the Dragonriders of Pern.
The Dorian Hawkmoon stories of Moorcock are set in the far future, not the past.
A lot of fantasy takes place in alternate dimensions, universes, or timelines.
There have always been fantasy tales set outside of Europe, just because Tolkien didn't use Asian mythological stories, doesn't mean there isn't also plenty of lore to create Asian-based fantasy stories. Or African, or (Native) American.

Now coming to D & D, as we've discussed many times here, Forgotten Realms setting is on Abeil-Toril, another planet, not Earth. The historical period, well, the way they reckon chronology and the years in Faerun is different from our planet, but it's not "medieval". Faerun resembles medieval Europe, just as Kara-Tur resembles feudal Asia, but it is NOT Europe. The tech level is steampunk, medieval Europe didn't have submarines, grenade launchers, and underwater prisons.

Hell, even TODAY building a functional underwater prison would be difficult.