Vampires are evil

[Gushazan]

You try not to judge. Your motto is live and let live. So what one of your companions drinks the blood of other living beings? Who cares if they've murdered innocents for hundreds of years? Everyone is capable of redemption you say to yourself. Then you talk to families effected by your blood sucking friend's evil actions.

Pretty much impossible to meet a good Vampire. If they are good, most likely they're only half. Hope this isn't considered a spoiler, but hearing from Asterion's victims in Act 3 was one of the most heart wrenching stories I've wtinessed. It made me try to understand who he really is, as a person.

I reflected and from what I recall, he is solely interested in himself. He doesn't seem to have anyone else's best interest at heart. I don't recall if his beginnings had anything that redeems him.

I know he was someone's thrall at the time. I know that this overlord Vampire, who controlled him was the real hand behind Asterion's choices and actions, but Asterion could at least be accountable for his part.

[FoxFox]

Originally posted by Abisha:

Originally posted by FoxFox:

I didn't say anything like that. But anyway, Astarion did more than "something bad". People, including children, died because of him. At every opportunity he chooses to do the things that serve him best, even when it means harming others. He simply has no regard for other people's needs, which is (in DnD) the definition of evil. The "nobody's perfect" defense really doesn't cut it.

in his defense he was a trall, they not have a choose none so ever.
Tralls in DnD are blood controlled like a tadepol.

That was in my post. Still, even once he is free from his master's influence, he's not exactly trying to be good. Sure, he wants to stop taking innocent lives, but in other respects he remains evil. He enjoys killing nonetheless, he complains how awful it feels to "play the hero" by saving the refugees (you can "console" him by reminding him of all the goblins he slaughtered to do so). From his perspective all of this makes sense, which makes him relatable or at least understandable, but there is no way you can call him a morally good person.

[FoxFox]

Originally posted by meleander:

We don't know who he was before and for elf being a 39 is still very very young, like a teenager of sorts. After that he was a thrall, tortured for about 150 years.

Now Astarion is still making his choice on the matter to be good or evil. He more or less doesn't know better due to his trauma and yet, he is still not as far gone and want to change.

He literally complains about how bad it feels to save the refugees. Not wanting to be an enthralled killer does not make you a good person. He is still selfish, he doesn't want to stop powerful evil characters, he wants to become powerful himself. He says power can be used for good as well as evil, but the kind of power he seeks is inherently evil.

[retsam1]

Originally posted by FoxFox:

Originally posted by meleander:

We don't know who he was before and for elf being a 39 is still very very young, like a teenager of sorts. After that he was a thrall, tortured for about 150 years.

Now Astarion is still making his choice on the matter to be good or evil. He more or less doesn't know better due to his trauma and yet, he is still not as far gone and want to change.

He literally complains about how bad it feels to save the refugees. Not wanting to be an enthralled killer does not make you a good person. He is still selfish, he doesn't want to stop powerful evil characters, he wants to become powerful himself. He says power can be used for good as well as evil, but the kind of power he seeks is inherently evil.

I'd say its even more apt to just say he's self absorbed and centered and mewls about when he doesnt get what he wants and broods, just like the early years/books of Lestat from Ann Rices books... though arguably even later too.

Astarion is arguably a caricature idea copied in homage of someone's like for a book character vs a character of depth.

[meleander]

Originally posted by FoxFox:

Originally posted by meleander:

We don't know who he was before and for elf being a 39 is still very very young, like a teenager of sorts. After that he was a thrall, tortured for about 150 years.

Now Astarion is still making his choice on the matter to be good or evil. He more or less doesn't know better due to his trauma and yet, he is still not as far gone and want to change.

He literally complains about how bad it feels to save the refugees. Not wanting to be an enthralled killer does not make you a good person. He is still selfish, he doesn't want to stop powerful evil characters, he wants to become powerful himself. He says power can be used for good as well as evil, but the kind of power he seeks is inherently evil.

yes, but later on he changes - it's more about him learning a different path of life

[Abisha]

Originally posted by FoxFox:

Originally posted by Abisha:

in his defense he was a trall, they not have a choose none so ever.
Tralls in DnD are blood controlled like a tadepol.

That was in my post. Still, even once he is free from his master's influence, he's not exactly trying to be good. Sure, he wants to stop taking innocent lives, but in other respects he remains evil. He enjoys killing nonetheless, he complains how awful it feels to "play the hero" by saving the refugees (you can "console" him by reminding him of all the goblins he slaughtered to do so). From his perspective all of this makes sense, which makes him relatable or at least understandable, but there is no way you can call him a morally good person.

Playing hero carry risks, like death Shadow-hart agrees with my statement.
helping or not helping refugees means basic nothing it do not makes one good or bad.
just neutral.

in my perspective evil ether kill for the trill or torture.

[FoxFox]

Originally posted by retsam1:

Originally posted by FoxFox:

He literally complains about how bad it feels to save the refugees. Not wanting to be an enthralled killer does not make you a good person. He is still selfish, he doesn't want to stop powerful evil characters, he wants to become powerful himself. He says power can be used for good as well as evil, but the kind of power he seeks is inherently evil.

I'd say its even more apt to just say he's self absorbed and centered

that's what evil is in DnD.

[FoxFox]

Originally posted by Abisha:

Originally posted by FoxFox:

That was in my post. Still, even once he is free from his master's influence, he's not exactly trying to be good. Sure, he wants to stop taking innocent lives, but in other respects he remains evil. He enjoys killing nonetheless, he complains how awful it feels to "play the hero" by saving the refugees (you can "console" him by reminding him of all the goblins he slaughtered to do so). From his perspective all of this makes sense, which makes him relatable or at least understandable, but there is no way you can call him a morally good person.

Playing hero carry risks, like death Shadow-hart agrees with my statement.
helping or not helping refugees means basic nothing it do not makes one good or bad.
just neutral.

in my perspective evil ether kill for the trill or torture.

Sure, if that's you definition of evil. But in DnD good/evil is mostly about being altruistic vs being selfish.

[✙205🍉🐆→]

Vampires are evil
If they were good, they would have killed themselves, it's logical.

[Abisha]

Originally posted by FoxFox:

Originally posted by Abisha:

Playing hero carry risks, like death Shadow-hart agrees with my statement.
helping or not helping refugees means basic nothing it do not makes one good or bad.
just neutral.

in my perspective evil ether kill for the trill or torture.

Sure, if that's you definition of evil. But in DnD good/evil is mostly about being altruistic vs being selfish.

there is no alignment in DnD they trashed it. so the DnD of good/evil no longer apply
there for we must apply real world morality compass

[Ranpo]

Asterion consuming all those spawn is a good thing for Faerun.

[Ranpo]

Originally posted by Abisha:

american soldiers kill 1000's of people 2.
do that makes them evil?

Yes. Period.

[FoxFox]

Originally posted by Abisha:

Originally posted by FoxFox:

Sure, if that's you definition of evil. But in DnD good/evil is mostly about being altruistic vs being selfish.

there is no alignment in DnD they trashed it. so the DnD of good/evil no longer apply
there for we must apply real world morality compass

"Must"? Even without the alignment system, Astarion is clearly a companion written to support you on evil playthroughs.

We can get philosophical about what evil truly means, but within the game context I see Astarion as purely selfish and generally opposed to helping others, which to me is evil.

If killing or hurting others purely for fun is the only thing you consider to be evil, then sure, Astarion is not completely evil. Hardly anyone in the game is evil then, except maybe the Bhaal followers.

[Gushazan]

Originally posted by gh0stwizard:

>Vampires are evil
Did you hear about "Twilight" movie? Looks like not. Ah, man, this game is full of parodies. May be I am wrong about Twilight, it just the movie I watched once. I am pretty sure there are plenty other works (books, serials, etc) where vampires are good. If you think that such quality is unacceptable or incorrect, well, you are not a lone in the whole world. Other people think differently than you.

Does the live stage reading I did of a condensed version of Twilight count? I understand all of that. I was joking about there being no good Vampires. I know of several but wanted to stick to BG3 storyline.

We can make another topic to talk about the good ones, like Dracula from Castlevania.

[paladin765]

My only comment on this conversation is...
Watch Vampire Hunter D. (either the original Japanese or the Original english dubb, not that crappy redubb made by amateurs) and its sequel Bloodlust.

[Gushazan]

Originally posted by FoxFox:

Originally posted by Abisha:

there is no alignment in DnD they trashed it. so the DnD of good/evil no longer apply
there for we must apply real world morality compass

"Must"? Even without the alignment system, Astarion is clearly a companion written to support you on evil playthroughs.

We can get philosophical about what evil truly means, but within the game context I see Astarion as purely selfish and generally opposed to helping others, which to me is evil.

If killing or hurting others purely for fun is the only thing you consider to be evil, then sure, Astarion is not completely evil. Hardly anyone in the game is evil then, except maybe the Bhaal followers.

I have friends like Astarion. We have been able to stay friends because I understand this aspect of their personality. I got caught up in his sob story, even though I knew he had been in the employ of evil, and felt sorry for him. Third act changed all that.

His lack of accountability and his desire to run away from his past was what really disappointed me. At least he could face his past. I usually play chaotic good. I like that he seems chaotic, but he seems more neutral evil than chaotic.