Help on proficiency, save throwing and multiclassing

[paranoia25]

I apologize, but I've come across contradictory information regarding multiclassing. I have several questions. Could someone help me understand what it's all about?
When multiclassing, do we acquire the ability proficiencies of each class along with their corresponding saving throws? For example, if I multiclass as a Wizard and Fighter, would I gain proficiency in Intelligence, Wisdom, Strength and Constitution? If so, how is the proficiency bonus calculated? Is it based on the character's total level (the sum of the levels in Wizard and Fighter), or is it determined by the individual class level that granted the proficiency?

Other than that, is it problematic for the main character to have low charisma?

[Fringehunter7719]

Originally posted by paranoia25:

I apologize, but I've come across contradictory information regarding multiclassing. I have several questions. Could someone help me understand what it's all about?
When multiclassing, do we acquire the ability proficiencies of each class along with their corresponding saving throws? For example, if I multiclass as a Wizard and Fighter, would I gain proficiency in Intelligence, Wisdom, Strength and Constitution? If so, how is the proficiency bonus calculated? Is it based on the character's total level (the sum of the levels in Wizard and Fighter), or is it determined by the individual class level that granted the proficiency?

Edit: Apologies this got so long, the rules are quite lengthy.

Let me try and summarise all the info in one go. Most of the information can be found here:
https://5thsrd.org/rules/multiclassing/

• There are four basic types of proficiency: Weapons, armor, saving throws and skills. They all do slightly different things.
  
  
• Your proficiency bonus is solely determined by character level, which is the sum of all your levels in all classes: It is +2 at levels 1-4, +3 at levels 5-8, +4 at levels 9-12 (and it would be +5 at 13-16 and +6 at 17-20).
  
  
• Whenever you perform an action you have the proficiency for you add your proficiency bonus. This includes attacking with a given weapon type, but does not include armor, which is not attached to an action.
  
  
• Under normal circumstances proficiency doesn't stack, you either have it or don't, even if you would get it from several different sources. You can't add proficiency from two separate sources, although a couple of features like "expertise" allow you to double it before adding it (but still only adding it once and also only doubling it once).
  
  
• If you equip armor you are not proficient with it triggers certain negative effects, most importantly it shuts down your ability to cast spells.
  
  
• A saving throw is a special type of roll you get to make when *you* are subjected to a hostile event that isn't an attack. You get one chance to avoid the worst of the effect and "save" yourself.
  
  
• There's also a special saving throw called a death saving throw when you are downed. You can't become proficient in those at level 1 though, and they aren't important for multiclassing.
  
  
• There are three strong saving throws which come up a lot: Dex, Con and Wis. And three saving throws that are weak because they come up much less or the consequences of failure are typically less severe: Str, Int and Cha. Each class gets 1 strong and 1 weak saving throw at level 1.
  
  
• Broadly speaking: Str saves you against getting physically moved or knocked over; Dex saves against area of effect damage; Con saves against being diseased, poisoned, paralysed or physically incapacitated and importantly for casters also gives you a save to maintain concentration every single time you take damage while concentrating on a spell; Int saves against a limited subset of attacks on your mind; Wis saves against most attacks on the mind; Cha saves against effects like banishment.
  
  
• You are always proficient with unarmed strikes and your own spellcasting.
  
  
• Spells are all attached to one spellcasting stat and you add the modifier for that stat to your roll separately from your proficiency bonus. For a wizard that is Int.
  
  
• Attacks are all attached to either Str or Dex in addition to weapon proficiency. Str for melee attacks, Dex for attacks with a ranged or finesse weapon. Again you add your modifier to the attack roll separately from any proficiency bonus for the weapon you use.
  
  
• The table top requirement to multiclass *into* or *out of* fighter is to have 13 Dex or 13 Str (I only mention this because someone described it incorrectly above) and *into* or *out of* wizard is 13 Int. So you would need both 13 Int and 13 Dex to mutliclass fighter and wizard normally (or 13 Int and 13 Str, but that rarely comes up). Since this requirement is dropped in BG3 it is irrelevant to us.
  
  
• The class you take at level 1 determines your starting HP, you get your full hit dice + Con mod as hit points. At later levels you get only half (rounded up) your hit dice. So a level 2 character: wizard 1 fighter 1 with 14 Con gets (6+2)+(6+2) = 16HP whereas a level 2 character: fighter 1 wizard 1 with 14 Con gets (10+2)+(4+2) = 18HP.
  
  
• The class you take at level 1 determines your saving throw proficiencies (one weak, one strong as mentioned before). You never gain additional saving proficiencies just by multiclassing. As a caster you really benefit from Con saving throw proficiency to maintain concentration.
  
  
• Armor and weapon proficiencies are typically reduced when you multiclass into a class, compared to taking it at level 1. From the table Multiclassing Proficiencies at https://5thsrd.org/rules/multiclassing/ you can see that fighters don't get heavy armor proficiency unless you take them at first level. Wizards technically miss out on Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs and light crossbows at level 1, but you get that from being a level 1 fighter anyway.
  
  
• The two standard skill proficiencies you get at level 1 are not granted when you multiclass into a class. But bards and rogues that grant a bonus third proficiency do still award it. In the case of rogue that's still one down as they would get four at level 1.
  
  
• Any proficiency granted by a class feature or awarded after level 1 will be added to your character as normal.

So to summarise fighter 1, wizard 1 gets:
Saving throw proficiencies: Con, Str
Armor proficiencies: All
Weapon proficiencies: All
Skill proficiencies: 2
HP: 14 + 2xCon mod

Whereas wizard 1, fighter 1 gets:
Saving throw proficiencies: Wis, Int
Armor proficiencies: Light, Medium, Shields
Weapon proficiencies: All
Skill proficiencies: 2
HP: 12 + 2xCon mod

So the characters are identical in all respects except: Fighter first gets that all important Con saving throw proficiency (in place of Wis, and gets Str in place of Int); Fighter first gets heavy armor proficiency; Fighter first gets +2HP.

Originally posted by paranoia25:

Other than that, is it problematic for the main character to have low charisma?

You can talk with a character other than your "main" most of the time. But if you plan to do the talking it's important to remember that all skill checks are tied to a stat.

Just as with attack rolls and saving throws you are rolling a D20 (20-sided dice) then adding proficiency if you are proficient (or double proficiency if you are an expert) and adding the modifier to the stat that skill is tied to.

Persuasion, intimidation and deception are all tied to charisma. And you will be doing a lot of those with the member of your party who does the talking. High charisma and persuasion proficiency (or better yet expertise) goes a long, long way in BG3.

[paranoia25]

Originally posted by Fringehunter:

Edit: Apologies this got so long, the rules are quite lengthy.

Are you kidding? Thank you so much!! This helps me tremendously. Despite scouring various Baldur's Gate 3 guides, I couldn't find explanations as comprehensive and concise as this. Seriously, it answers a lot of the questions I had in mind ;)

I want to revisit the issue of losing Intelligence proficiency for a multiclassed wizard. I initially thought that Intelligence proficiency granted a bonus to spellcasting. However, after doing some research, I found this information:
- Spell attack to hit = d20 + proficiency bonus + spellcasting ability bonus vs AC
- Difficulty of the spell’s Saving Throw is usually: 8 + Caster’s Ability Score modifier + Proficiency bonus
- The caster has proficiency with any spells they can cast, and they add their spellcasting class's Ability Score modifier (either Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, depending on the class) to the Attack Roll

So, if I understand correctly, losing Intelligence proficiency as a wizard doesn't remove the proficiency bonus that a wizard gets, which is essentially guaranteed. Have I understood this correctly?

One last question: taking everything into account, do you think it's worthwhile to create a Fighter 1/Wizard 11 character? In my mind, this would provide good durability without needing to specialize in something like Abjuration as suggested by Forblaze.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Jondar Korric:

Originally posted by Metallicus:

That’s pretty stupid. Another ‘feature’ of 5e I suppose.

you didn't gain them in 3.5 either so you can stow that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ right now.

What? Did you play any games on that edition? If you multi-class in NWN you get everything that the class feats table contains, right off the bat.

I'm surprised 5e even has multi-classing. After what they did to things like DR, DI, SR, etc - seems like multi-classing is "too complex" of a feature for something as braindead as 5e.

[retsam1]

Originally posted by paranoia25:

Originally posted by Fringehunter:

Edit: Apologies this got so long, the rules are quite lengthy.

One last question: taking everything into account, do you think it's worthwhile to create a Fighter 1/Wizard 11 character? In my mind, this would provide good durability without needing to specialize in something like Abjuration as suggested by Forblaze.

Ive some questions in a different direction of thinking with all this as Im wondering more overarchingly what your goals are. Survivability? Pure wizards can survive just fine if built and gears appropriately, so can other caster classes. Gear? Some good gear ignores proficiencies (like listed below). etc etc

1. Are you trying to min/max? If so, your directional thinking on this may not be as optimal as it could be.

2. Who are are your 3 other people in your party and skills/levels you're intending for them? Does it not matter to you? The dynamics of your group can make the considerations quite different and change your individual character's choices for what you do.

3. There are gear that you can get like the heavy plate hell dusk armor that ignores proficiency to use it) that drops in Act 3.

4. What school of magic wizard do you want to play specifically, you talk about concerns about what people suggest but not clear on what your specific interests align to. If you just want for example an extremely powerful caster, a pure draconic blood line sorc focusing on specific gear and build type is going to pretty much sneeze and kill everything. (There's some interesting yt vids on that for example).

5. In most combat situations your saves are not going to be as meaningful(especially once geared up) as you may be thinking too per things stated above. Also which difficulty level you opt for is going to be a factor.

Just so many variables still really and it could prove in the long run that the intent focus on the points in your first post may be not as relevant in the long run.

[paranoia25]

Originally posted by retsam1:

Ive some questions in a different direction of thinking with all this as Im wondering more overarchingly what your goals are

Interesting questions that I haven't clearly asked myself yet ;) I'm new to the world of D&D, and my initial idea was simply to have the most powerful mage possible. However, I now realize that this doesn't mean much and isn't possible. It's impossible to avoid compromises.

But yes, to address your point 4, an extremely powerful mage who wouldn't be vulnerable (not a glass cannon) would suit me just fine ;) That's why, after looking at the descriptions, I was leaning towards something like this for the schools of magic: Evocation. And I'm torn between Abjuration and Conjuration. With these combos:
Fighter 1/Wizard 11 - Evocation & Conjuration
Wizard 12 - Evocation & Abjuration

Regarding point 2: I have no idea; I haven't started playing yet ;) I was more focused on creating a character that I like and adapting my recruitment accordingly.

But maybe I should give it a try... and start playing ;) even if it means respec my build (it's just that I don't really like it from a role-playing perspective).

[retsam1]

Originally posted by paranoia25:

Originally posted by retsam1:

Ive some questions in a different direction of thinking with all this as Im wondering more overarchingly what your goals are

Interesting questions that I haven't clearly asked myself yet ;) I'm new to the world of D&D, and my initial idea was simply to have the most powerful mage possible. However, I now realize that this doesn't mean much and isn't possible. It's impossible to avoid compromises.

But yes, to address your point 4, an extremely powerful mage who wouldn't be vulnerable (not a glass cannon) would suit me just fine ;) That's why, after looking at the descriptions, I was leaning towards something like this for the schools of magic: Evocation. And I'm torn between Abjuration and Conjuration. With these combos:
Fighter 1/Wizard 11 - Evocation & Conjuration
Wizard 12 - Evocation & Abjuration

Regarding point 2: I have no idea; I haven't started playing yet ;) I was more focused on creating a character that I like and adapting my recruitment accordingly.

But maybe I should give it a try... and start playing ;) even if it means respec my build (it's just that I don't really like it from a role-playing perspective).

In general then, anything you choose is going to be ok, especially if you play on easier settings(recommended due to being new to dnd etc). Just read and watch and search on things I mention below as that may help form different impressions on your build considerations too. My first run was a cleric 8 rogue 4 or so. My current second run as an evil(Dark Urge) character is a pure Wizard in the Necromancy school. Third run will be a either a barbarian 3/4 mon 8/9 or a bard multi or a sorceror. Havent decided yet. Lots of interesting combinations to consider.


Some things perhaps to keep in mind as you start and progress too:

1. Some classes or choices are early bloomers. Others are late bloomers. Wizards as a whole are arguably late bloomers. Warlocks depending on how they're built and geared are early bloomers with semi consistent progression there after. Sorcs can be early bloomers, that become really strong late bloomers too. To help you see this example watch this youtube vide(its 2) on Sorcs by this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWrElrhJ0hU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TFaVFxLDVI

2. In relation to point 2, the same can apply to how you multiclass(or choose not to). Some are early some are late bloomers.

3. Save the game very often. And I really mean often. Anytime you make choices, start heading into a new subregion of a map, new map, before an obvious combat encounter, before rolling on an obvious dialog or saving throw check of importance, save. It can mean the difference between reloading a 1min loss of time to an hour+ worth of time.

4. In relation to point 3, if you're encountering challenges in a fight, reload a save and rethink strategies for it. Should you wait to go into that fight until you've leveled up more, gotten better gear, different group dynamics of a party, more buff and heal potions etc?

5. Read guides and watch more youtube, especially due to not being familiar with dnd and 5e rules etc. Focus on those specific to the game as well because some general rules for 5th Edition DnD rules are not applied to the game.

6. Play on the easiest difficulty for your first playthrough. This way, you make it an easier learning curve as well instead of potentially making it harder for yourself than you need to.

7. Money will be a big starting challenge as it is for most games like this. There are various "infinite money" tricks people employ but if you dont want to go that route, once you've gotten past the tutorial (ship) in the game, you can start right clicking items you find in the game and "send to camp". Putting those items in the camp storage chest that you can visit at any time to take the items from. Not only does this mean you dont have to worry about weight issues as you venture in the game, but when you get to a vendor in game you can simply click to go to camp(teleports you if you will) and grab items and port back and sell.

8. In relation to point 7, the better your reputation with a vendor the better the prices both for buying and selling. "Donating" items to the vendor increases reputation so for each Act in the game find good vendors to donate to first then subsequent items you can get for much more gold when selling and cheaper for buying. Dont do this to all vendors as you'll end up with nothing to sell.

To this end, grab anything you find. Everything has value to sell almost. And even things that are valued at 1gp have merit to sell. When selling to a vendor all items above 1gp can sell for lower(due to reputation scales) but all 1gp items always remain 1gp.

In the early game that is never to be underestimated as rotten food is in 8 out of 10 containers in the game and stacks. 30 rotten carrots is 30gp no matter what when selling. And 30gp in your first 1-5 levels is still important.

9. With point 8, Clicking to do a long rest in camp resets the coin and general items a vendor normally sells. This is how to get always fresh supplies of healing potions, alchemical materials to make potions, more scrolls etc. First area in the game that has vendors that most people visit for example has to start 3 vendors you can regularly use(one disappears later) and 2 of those(including the disappearing one) sells potions).

10. Learn to press your Left ALT key often. Left ALT lets you see some(not all) things in the game by giving it a name tag visible to see while the key is held down. You can find lots of hidden or overlooked things this way. Also in conjunction with this, mouse over lots of things in the world as often you miss things that way too. You dont have to be far zoomed out all the time. With that in mind too, read walk throughs too to help you know things to look for in different places to help you.


And there's lots more but all that hopefully gets you going.

[Forblaze]

Originally posted by paranoia25:

One last question: taking everything into account, do you think it's worthwhile to create a Fighter 1/Wizard 11 character? In my mind, this would provide good durability

1 level of fighter does not provide meaningful amounts of durability. The difference between a wizard wearing a half plate and a wizard with mage armor (a spell) is 2 AC (10% chance to be hit). If you have more than 14 dex, it's even less. It's not worth delaying *all* of your wizard abilities by a full level up. I'm telling you, 12 levels of adjuration wizard is going to be significantly more enjoyable to a person new to DnD than 1 fighter/11 wizard.

[Fringehunter7719]

Originally posted by paranoia25:

I want to revisit the issue of losing Intelligence proficiency for a multiclassed wizard. I initially thought that Intelligence proficiency granted a bonus to spellcasting. However, after doing some research, I found this information:
- Spell attack to hit = d20 + proficiency bonus + spellcasting ability bonus vs AC
- Difficulty of the spell’s Saving Throw is usually: 8 + Caster’s Ability Score modifier + Proficiency bonus
- The caster has proficiency with any spells they can cast, and they add their spellcasting class's Ability Score modifier (either Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, depending on the class) to the Attack Roll

So, if I understand correctly, losing Intelligence proficiency as a wizard doesn't remove the proficiency bonus that a wizard gets, which is essentially guaranteed. Have I understood this correctly?

You have indeed. The intelligence proficiency that wizards are getting at level 1 is proficiency in intelligence saving throws. Those don't benefit your spellcasting in any way.

They only help when you are subjected to a spell or other effect that permits you to make an intelligence save to reduce the harmful effect, and there aren't all that many of those.

Originally posted by paranoia25:

One last question: taking everything into account, do you think it's worthwhile to create a Fighter 1/Wizard 11 character? In my mind, this would provide good durability without needing to specialize in something like Abjuration as suggested by Forblaze.

That is a solid character for spellcasting, and will work fine, yes.

Personally I'd be more tempted to do something like cleric 1/wizard 11 (or cleric 1 / wizard 10 / cleric 2) and pick up resilient con along the way for spellcasting proficiency, but it's not clear cut better or anything.

[Fringehunter7719]

Originally posted by Forblaze:

Originally posted by paranoia25:

One last question: taking everything into account, do you think it's worthwhile to create a Fighter 1/Wizard 11 character? In my mind, this would provide good durability

1 level of fighter does not provide meaningful amounts of durability. The difference between a wizard wearing a half plate and a wizard with mage armor (a spell) is 2 AC (10% chance to be hit).

I hope nobody minds if I just add a word about this. It's 10% for the armor and another 10% for the ability to equip a shield and another 5% for the fighting style. 25% less chance to be hit (and 4HP at levels 1&2) means quite a bit. Also if you can get a +1 shield (which exists in BG3) that becomes another +5%.

Because of specific itemisation as well, there are some really, really, really smoking hot medium armors that make mage armor look pathetic, when it's actually pretty good. I won't say more because that could stray into spoiler territory.

You're also not gaining the benefit of Con save proficiency that really helps with concentration checks, though that's something you can resolve later with the resilient feat.

BG3 does have a weird non-5e rules version of learning from spell scrolls, which means if you multiclass cleric instead of fighter to get the armor/shield proficiency then you can learn the spells you want from scrolls and lose no spell progression at all, but won't get the Con save proficiency for concentration and will still be 1 level behind on class features.

The other alternative that can be really important to consider is to pick human or half elf as your race, which will give you shield proficiency without any multiclassing at all.

[⇧⇨⇩⇩⇩]

Originally posted by Metallicus:

Why don’t you get ability proficiencies when you multiclass? It seems like you should.

No not handing out saving throw and skill proficiencues with multiclassing is quite intentional. You are not supposed to get all proficiencies from every random multiclass combination.

[paranoia25]

Originally posted by Fringehunter7719:

Originally posted by Forblaze:

1 level of fighter does not provide meaningful amounts of durability. The difference between a wizard wearing a half plate and a wizard with mage armor (a spell) is 2 AC (10% chance to be hit).

I hope nobody minds if I just add a word about this. It's 10% for the armor and another 10% for the ability to equip a shield and another 5% for the fighting style. 25% less chance to be hit (and 4HP at levels 1&2) means quite a bit. Also if you can get a +1 shield (which exists in BG3) that becomes another +5%.

Because of specific itemisation as well, there are some really, really, really smoking hot medium armors that make mage armor look pathetic, when it's actually pretty good. I won't say more because that could stray into spoiler territory.

You're also not gaining the benefit of Con save proficiency that really helps with concentration checks, though that's something you can resolve later with the resilient feat.

BG3 does have a weird non-5e rules version of learning from spell scrolls, which means if you multiclass cleric instead of fighter to get the armor/shield proficiency then you can learn the spells you want from scrolls and lose no spell progression at all, but won't get the Con save proficiency for concentration and will still be 1 level behind on class features.

The other alternative that can be really important to consider is to pick human or half elf as your race, which will give you shield proficiency without any multiclassing at all.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm almost ready to create my Fighter/Wizard ;)

There's just one last thing that still makes me hesitate. I just noticed while playing with the character creation sheet, which may or may not be an issue with the Fighter/Wizard multiclassing, is that with an equal distribution of ability points, the wizard has a higher total of skill's points (especially those related to intelligence), and it's not possible to allocate bonus points to a skill like Religion.

So, I suppose it won't be possible for me to excel in Religion, Arcana, History, and Investigation?

[⇧⇨⇩⇩⇩]

Originally posted by paranoia25:

Originally posted by Fringehunter7719:

I hope nobody minds if I just add a word about this. It's 10% for the armor and another 10% for the ability to equip a shield and another 5% for the fighting style. 25% less chance to be hit (and 4HP at levels 1&2) means quite a bit. Also if you can get a +1 shield (which exists in BG3) that becomes another +5%.

Because of specific itemisation as well, there are some really, really, really smoking hot medium armors that make mage armor look pathetic, when it's actually pretty good. I won't say more because that could stray into spoiler territory.

You're also not gaining the benefit of Con save proficiency that really helps with concentration checks, though that's something you can resolve later with the resilient feat.

BG3 does have a weird non-5e rules version of learning from spell scrolls, which means if you multiclass cleric instead of fighter to get the armor/shield proficiency then you can learn the spells you want from scrolls and lose no spell progression at all, but won't get the Con save proficiency for concentration and will still be 1 level behind on class features.

The other alternative that can be really important to consider is to pick human or half elf as your race, which will give you shield proficiency without any multiclassing at all.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm almost ready to create my Fighter/Wizard ;)

There's just one last thing that still makes me hesitate. I just noticed while playing with the character creation sheet, which may or may not be an issue with the Fighter/Wizard multiclassing, is that with an equal distribution of ability points, the wizard has a higher total of skill's points (especially those related to intelligence), and it's not possible to allocate bonus points to a skill like Religion.

So, I suppose it won't be possible for me to excel in Religion, Arcana, History, and Investigation?

No, neither fighters or wizards are classes wih a lot of skills.
One thing you can do if you are dead set on those two but want some extra skills is playing a Githyanki and avoid taking all the intelligence skills. Then each adventuring day you can use the Gith racial skill Ancestral knowledge that gives you all the skills asociated with one stat. Pick intelligence and then you gain all those skills untill long rest. (you can ofc pick a different stat at the start of any day)

[Fringehunter7719]

Originally posted by paranoia25:

There's just one last thing that still makes me hesitate. I just noticed while playing with the character creation sheet, which may or may not be an issue with the Fighter/Wizard multiclassing, is that with an equal distribution of ability points, the wizard has a higher total of skill's points (especially those related to intelligence), and it's not possible to allocate bonus points to a skill like Religion.

So, I suppose it won't be possible for me to excel in Religion, Arcana, History, and Investigation?

I'm not sure if I'm following the question, sorry. I'll do my best to answer.

Both fighter and wizard get two skill proficiencies at level 1. Fighter chooses two among Athletics, Acrobatics, History, Animal Handling, Insight, Perception and Intimidation. Which means the only option they can pick among the four you mention is History.

Wizard chooses two among Arcana, History, Investigation, Religion, Insight and Medicine. That includes all four, but you can only take two of them.

But you can also get skill proficiences from your background and your race. For example a Wood Elf gets Stealth and Perception. A Sage gets Arcana and History, which would allow your level 1 wizard to choose to add Investigation and Religion to get the four you mention. A sage fighter would get Arcana and History, plus two to four other skills (depending on race), but would lack two of the four you single out.

There is one more option though - a Githyanki gets the racial ability Astral Knowledge at level 1. this gives you a skill you can use that adds proficiency in all skills associated with a particular stat until your next long rest. If you use this immediately after you long rest to add proficiency in all intelligence skills that would give you Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature and Religion. You could then take any four different skills from your background+fighter class to have all four that you mention, plus five others.