Baldur's Gate 3

Baldur's Gate 3

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Another Hand Crossbow vs Heavy Crossbow discussion
If one assumes, all others being equal, that the main hand attack will always include either a Battlemaster Maneuver OR a Specialty Arrow, both doing a maximum of 8 additional damage for main hand attacks, not including Sneak Attack at higher levels (2D6 for Fast Hands), and a character is mainlining archery damage by maximizing Dexterity AND/OR Sharpshooter then the following comparison for Heavy Crossbow VS Dual Hand Crossbows is hereby presented. More for my own edification, to be sure, but no point in doing it w/o sharing it. A Heavy Crossbow character would take the +2 to hit, and the Dual Hand Crossbow would have to take the Two Weapon Fighting. While it is necessary to spec into Rogue for the Fast Hands there is no capability for specing into Two Weapon Fighting as a Rogue. So a Fighter is required first. The Ranger/Paladin/Bard capability to gain a fighting style should be ignored completely as they do not get Power Surge. Additionally, the necessity to use a Bonus Action to apply Hunter's Mark for the Ranger mitigates against using Ranger as a base class for dual wielding Hand Crossbows. At minimum the Fighter should stay in class until level 5 for the additional attack. At lvl 5 can then spec into Rogue until level 3 for Fast Hands and then pick up a second feat at either level 6 Fighter or level 4 Rogue. While the Battlemaster is certainly the most directed of the fighter sub classes, for dual wielding Hand Crossbows and assuming that specialty arrows will be available there is no shame in either the Eldritch Knight or Champion sub classes. Champion gives a crit chance increase passive and Eldritch Knight gives Shield and some maneuver spells that are handy.

That being said, Sharpshooter is frankly better for the Heavy Crossbow/Archery Fighting Style rather than Hand Crossbow/Two Weapon Fighting. So it is practical to include and compare the to hit bonus.

A Level 4 Fighter can choose to either go 18+ Dexterity OR Sharp Shooter. This is the first demarcation of the specline. So here are some possible comparisons. If you have the capability to decipher this you will notice that even accounting for the much higher miss rate of a 17 dex dual wielding sharpshooter it's still doing about 4 more damage per basic round than the 18 dex heavy crossbow at lvl 4.

The second demarcation is going Rogue at all. The only reason to do so is to gain an additional Bonus action per turn, so unless dual wielding.. don't.

So the most ideal specline for dual wielding hand crossbows, as far as I can tell at this time of.. Morning, is level 5 Fighter followed by Level 3 Rogue, One more Fighter or Thief for the feat, then rest in Ranger/Gloom Stalker for the Ambush. And I gotta say, you throw Haste onto this beasty.. It's scary as bollacks.

18 Dex/Heavy Crossbow/+2 to Hit (Lvl 4 Fighter)
Max Base 23
Avg Base 19.5
Max Surge 46
Avg Surge 29
To Hit +9 to Hit

18 Dex/Dual Hand Crossbows (Lvl 4 Fighter)
Max Base 30
Avg Base 21.5
Max Surge 51
Avg Surge 33.5
To Hit +7 to Hit (Compared to +9 to Hit)
Comparitive 19.35 (-10%) Average Base Damage vs 19.5)
Comparitive 30.15 (-10%) Average Surge Damage vs 29)

17 Dex/Heavy Crossbow/Sharpshooter/+2 to Hit (Lvl 4 Fighter)
Max Base 32
Avg Base 23.5
Max Surge 64
Avg Surge 47
To Hit +3 to Hit (Compared to +9 to Hit)
Comparitive 16.45 (-30%) Average Base Damage vs 19.5)
Comparitive 32.9 (-30%) Average Surge Damage vs 29)

17 Dex/Dual Hand Crossbows/Sharpshooter (Lvl 4 Fighter)
Max Base 48
Avg Base 39
Max Surge 76
Avg Surge 60.5
To Hit +1 to Hit (Compared to +9 to Hit)
Comparitive 23.4 (-40%) Average Base Damage vs 19.5)
Comparitive 36.3 (-40%) Average Surge Damage vs 29)


Level 1 Fighter 17 Dex w/+1 Crossbows (+6/8 to Hit)

1D6+(+4/+0-8) Action
1D6+4 Bonus 1d10+(+4/+0-8) Action

28 Max 22
19 (+6 to hit) Avg 13.5 (+8 to hit)
17.1 (-1.9@10%) Comparitive

Level 2 Fighter 17 Dex w/+1 Crossbows (+6/8 to Hit)

Power Surge

1d6+(+4/+0-8) Action
1D6+(+4/+0-8) Action 1d10+(+4/+0-8) Action
1D6+4 Bonus 1d10+(+4/+0-8) Action

46 Max 44
30.5(+6 to hit) Avg 27 (+8 to hit)
27.45 (-3.05@10%) Comparitive

Level 3 Fighter 17 Dex w/+1 Crossbow (+6/8 to Hit)

No change

Level 4 Fighter

Base (17 Dex w/+1 Crossbow/Sharpshooter (+1/+3 to Hit)

1D6+(+14/+0-8) Action
1D6+(+14) Bonus 1d10+(+14/+0-8) Action

48 Max 32
39 (+1 to hit) Avg 23.5 (+3 to Hit)
35.1 (-3.9@10%) Comparitive

Power Surge (17 Dex w/+1 Crossbow/Sharpshooter (+1/+3 to Hit)

1D6+(+14/+0-8) Action
1D6+(+14/+0-8) Action 1d10+(+14/+0-8) Action
1D6+(+14) Bonus 1d10+(+14/+0-8) Action

76 Max 64
60.5(+1 to hit) Avg 47 (+3 to Hit)
54.45 (-6.05@10%) Comparitive



Base (18+ Dex w/+1 Crossbow) (+7/+9 to Hit)

1D6+(+5/+0-8) Action
1D6+(+5) Bonus 1D10+(+5/+0-8) Action

30 Max 23
21.5(+7 to hit) Avg 19.5(+9 to Hit)
19.35 (-2.15@10%) comparitive

Power Surge (18+ Dex w/+1 Crossbow) (+7/+9 to Hit)

1D6+(+5/+0-8) Action
1D6+(+5/+0-8) Action 1D10+(+5/+0-8) Action
1D6+(+5) Bonus 1D10+(+5/+0-8) Action

51 Max 46
33.5(+7 to hit) Avg 29(+9 to Hit)
30.15 (-3.35@10%) comparitive




Base with Fighter Level 1 w/ Two Weapon Fighting

1d6 Action
1d6 Bonus 1d10 Action

2-12 1-10

+1 to Damage
4-14 2-11
+2 to Damage
6-16 3-12
+3 to Damage
8-18 4-13
+4 to Damage (Fighter 1 w/17 Dex/+1 Crossbows/+2 Proficiency Bonus [+6/8 to hit]
10-20 5-14
+5 to Damage (Fighter 4 w 18+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+2 Proficiency Bonus [+7/9 to hit]
12-22 6-15
+6 to Damage
14-24 7-16
+7 to Damage
16-26 8-17
+14 to Damage (Fighter 4 w/ 17 Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+2 Proficiency Bonus[+1/3 to hit]
30-42 15-25

Fast Hands (Rogue Subclass Thief 3) [Fighter 1/Rogue 3]

1d6 Action
1d6 Bonus
1d6 Bonus 1d10 Action

3-18 1-10

+1 to Damage
6-21 2-11
+2 to Damage
9-24 3-12
+3 to Damage
12-27 4-13
+4 to Damage (Fighter 1/Rogue 3 w/17 Dex/+1 Crossbows/+2 Proficiency Bonus [+6/8 to hit]
15-30 5-14
+5 to Damage (Fighter 1/Rogue 4 w 18+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+3 Proficiency Bonus [+8/10 to hit]
18-33 6-15
+6 to Damage
21-36 7-16
+7 to Damage
24-39 8-17
+14 to Damage (Fighter 1/Rogue 4 w/ 17 Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+3 Proficiency Bonus[+2/4 to hit]
45-60 15-25



Power Surge (Fighter 2)

1d6 Action
1d6 Bonus 1D10 Action
1d6 Action 1d10 Action

3-18 2-20

+1 to Damage
6-21 4-22
+2 to Damage
9-24 6-24
+3 to Damage
12-27 8-26
+4 to Damage (Fighter 2 w/17 Dex/+1 Crossbows/+2 Proficiency Bonus [+6/8 to hit]
15-30 10-28
+5 to Damage (Fighter 4 w 18+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+2 Proficiency Bonus [+7/9 to hit]
18-33 12-30
+6 to Damage
21-36 14-32
+7 to Damage
24-39 16-34
+14 to Damage (Fighter 4 w/ 17 Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+2 Proficiency Bonus[+1/3 to hit]
45-60 30-50


Power Surge AND Extra Attack (Fighter 5)

1d6 Action
1D6 Bonus 1D10 Action
1D6 Action 1D10 Action
1D6 Action 1D10 Action
1D6 Action 1D10 Action

5-30 4-40

+1 to Damage
10-35 8-44
+2 to Damage
15-40 12-48
+3 to Damage
20-45 16-52
+4 to Damage
25-50 20-56
+5 to Damage (Fighter 5 w 18+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+3 Proficiency Bonus [+8/10 to hit]
30-55 24-60
+6 to Damage (Fighter 6 w 20+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+3 Proficiency Bonus [+9/11 to hit]
35-60 28-64
+7 to Damage
40-65 32-68
+14 to Damage (Fighter 5 w/ 17 Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+3 Proficiency Bonus[+2/4 to hit]
75-100 60-100
+15 to Damage (Fighter 5 w/ 18+ Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+3 Proficiency Bonus[+3/5 to hit]
80-105 64-104
+16 to Damage (Fighter 6 w 20+ Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbows/+3 Proficiency Bonus [+4/6 to hit]
85-110 78-108


Extra Attack / Fast Hands (Fighter 5/Rogue 3)

1d6 Action
1d6 Bonus
1d6 Bonus 1D10 Action
1d6 Action 1D10 Action

4-24 2-20

+1 to Damage
8-28 4-22
+2 to Damage
12-32 6-24
+3 to Damage
16-36 8-26
+4 to Damage
20-40 10-28
+5 to Damage (Fighter 5/Rogue 3 w 18+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+3 Proficiency Bonus [+8/10 to hit]
24-44 12-30
+6 to Damage (Fighter 5/Rogue 3 w 20+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+3 Proficiency Bonus [+9/11 to hit]
28-48 14-32
+7 to Damage
32-52 16-34
+14 to Damage (Fighter 5/Rogue 3 w/ 17 Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+3 Proficiency Bonus[+2/4 to hit]
60-80 30-48
+15 to Damage (Fighter 5/Rogue 3 w/ 18+ Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+3 Proficiency Bonus[+3/5 to hit]
64-84 32-50
+16 to Damage (Fighter 6/Rogue 3 w/ 20+ Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+4 Proficiency Bonus[+5/7 to hit]
(Fighter 5/Rogue 4 w/ 20+ Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+4 Proficiency Bonus[+5/7 to hit]
68-88 34-52

Power Surge / Extra Attack / Fast Hands (Fighter 5/Rogue 3)

1d6 Action
1d6 Bonus
1d6 Bonus 1D10 Action
1d6 Action 1D10 Action
1D6 Action 1d10 Action
1d6 Action 1D10 Action

6-36 4-40

+1 to Damage
12-42 8-44
+2 to Damage
18-48 12-48
+3 to Damage
24-54 16-52
+4 to Damage
30-60 20-56
+5 to Damage (Fighter 5/Rogue 3 w 18+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+3 Proficiency Bonus [+8/10 to hit]
36-66 24-60
+6 to Damage (Fighter 6/Rogue 3 w 20+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+4 Proficiency Bonus [+10/12 to hit]
(Fighter 5/Rogue 4 w 20+ Dex/+1 Crossbows/+4 Proficiency Bonus [+10/12 to hit]
42-72 28-64
+7 to Damage
48-78 32-68
+14 to Damage (Fighter 5/Rogue 3 w/ 17 Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+3 Proficiency Bonus[+2/4 to hit]
90-120 60-100
+15 to Damage (Fighter 5/Rogue 3 w/ 18+ Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+3 Proficiency Bonus[+3/5 to hit]
96-126 64-104
+16 to Damage (Fighter 6/Rogue 3 w/ 20+ Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+4 Proficiency Bonus[+5/7 to hit]
(Fighter 5/Rogue 4 w/ 20+ Dex/Sharpshooter/+1 Crossbow(s)/+4 Proficiency Bonus[+5/7 to hit]
96-126 68-108
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Showing 1-15 of 37 comments
AokiYakumo Jun 17, 2024 @ 9:44am 
I feel like this needs a foreword or an abstract. Something to break, what, eight pages of data and bias recognition down into a digestible format?

Because HOLY HELL this is a lot.
Metallicus Jun 17, 2024 @ 10:06am 
I will wait for the TLDR version.
Tijger Jun 17, 2024 @ 11:28am 
Originally posted by Metallicus:
I will wait for the TLDR version.

I'm with you there, just tell me which one is better.
Lord Farquad Jun 17, 2024 @ 11:36am 
Originally posted by Tijger:
Originally posted by Metallicus:
I will wait for the TLDR version.

I'm with you there, just tell me which one is better.
Handbow. anyways, i do have quite the feeling that this post made by the OP was chat gpt.
Last edited by Lord Farquad; Jun 17, 2024 @ 1:37pm
DeMasked Jun 17, 2024 @ 11:37am 
I had fun using Dual Wield Crossbows when going through Honour Mode Multiplayer as a 10 Rogue Arcane Trickster and 2 Wizard Evocation using high level scrolls to wreck enemies and then using the bonus action for Sneak Attack.

I find it odd that the OP ignores Bard College of Swords.
harlequin_corps Jun 17, 2024 @ 5:25pm 
Originally posted by DeMasked:
I had fun using Dual Wield Crossbows when going through Honour Mode Multiplayer as a 10 Rogue Arcane Trickster and 2 Wizard Evocation using high level scrolls to wreck enemies and then using the bonus action for Sneak Attack.

I find it odd that the OP ignores Bard College of Swords.

"The Ranger/Paladin/Bard capability to gain a fighting style should be ignored completely as they do not get Power Surge."
harlequin_corps Jun 17, 2024 @ 5:31pm 
TLDR: (heh)
Battlemaster Fighter to Level 5, taking Two Weapon Fighting Style and Sharpshooter
Rogue Thief to Level 3
Fighter 5/Rogue 3 at level 8

If you instead take Dex to 18 at level 4 you will hit a lot more, but for slightly less overall damage. And factually, just use the Hag Hair to get to 18 dex instead.
Last edited by harlequin_corps; Jun 17, 2024 @ 6:33pm
harlequin_corps Jun 17, 2024 @ 6:01pm 
Originally posted by AokiYakumo:
I feel like this needs a foreword or an abstract. Something to break, what, eight pages of data and bias recognition down into a digestible format?

Because HOLY HELL this is a lot.
The point was to try to figure out, given the hit disparity, if going 18 dex at level 4 was better than going sharpshooter at level 4. Using a Archery Fighting Style Heavy Crossbow as a comparison.

So compare the 4 routes.

Heavy Crossbow/Archery/Sharpshooter
Heavy Crossbow/Archery/18+ Dex
Hand Crossbows/Two Weapon Fighting/Sharpshooter
Hand Crossbows/Two Weapon Fighting/18+ Dex

And in that comparison making sure to add in the use of Battlemaster maneuvers/Specialty Arrows for the main hand attacks.

Hand Crossbows with sharpshooter you are going to be missing a lot, but boy howdy when you do hit it's big numbers.

There's a couple meta items in the game that break this dynamic though. Risky Ring and Gloves of the Balanced Hands. Risky Ring gives you Advantage on all attack rolls, and the Gloves gives you Two Weapon Fighting. You should have these by the time you get Ne'er Misser and Hellfire Hand Crossbow. Although, I must say, Firestoker pairs well as an offhand if you mainline Arrows of Fire. The weird bit is keeping your Dex at 18 instead of going higher so you can pick up The Graceful Cloth. Gloves of Dexterity would work because they essentially give you 20 Dex for attack rolls, but a better combo is to respecc into Archery for the +2, equip the Gloves of the Balanced Hands for Two Weapon Fighting, that gives you both the +2 to Attack and offhand ability damage, then The Graceful Cloth for 20 Dex. With the Risky Ring that's +7 to hit/+5 to damage (2x) with advantage. If you are willing to put down the Warped Headband of Intellect, there's a whole range of better options out there. You just end up respeccing every time you pick up a piece of gear.
harlequin_corps Jun 17, 2024 @ 6:14pm 
There's another really weird dynamic which wouldn't work in tabletop but does work in BG3. Take a halfling. There, I said it.
Here's the reason why. Your movement speed doesn't actually matter when you are roaming around. It does matter when you get into combat. Given the situation where the group is following you into a cutscene or an ambush or just a flat out fight you are always slightly ahead of the rest of them. So you start the fight at least 3-5 units ahead of the rest of the group. Sure your movement is slower but the rest of the group has to use their movement just to get to you.
And for that you get.. automatic re-rolls of 1's AND advantage on stealth? Where exactly is the downside to this?
This means group stealth actually becomes more useful, because you are far less likely than the rest of the group to get popped, so you can get closer.
The single most bizarre aspect of BG3, I think, is that of being able to throw a burning torch adjacent to a thing you are about to attack so you can gain advantage for sneak attack.
Last edited by harlequin_corps; Jun 17, 2024 @ 6:22pm
harlequin_corps Jun 17, 2024 @ 6:34pm 
Originally posted by AokiYakumo:
I feel like this needs a foreword or an abstract. Something to break, what, eight pages of data and bias recognition down into a digestible format?

Because HOLY HELL this is a lot.
Also.. thank you for noticing my hamhanded sleep deprived attempt to remove statistical bias by adding in parameters. Not necessarily the best way to go, but my problem with thinking this through is that of the main hand damage adds. You really have to dig in if you want better numbers.
DeMasked Jun 17, 2024 @ 7:17pm 
Originally posted by harlequin_corps:
Originally posted by DeMasked:
I had fun using Dual Wield Crossbows when going through Honour Mode Multiplayer as a 10 Rogue Arcane Trickster and 2 Wizard Evocation using high level scrolls to wreck enemies and then using the bonus action for Sneak Attack.

I find it odd that the OP ignores Bard College of Swords.

"The Ranger/Paladin/Bard capability to gain a fighting style should be ignored completely as they do not get Power Surge."

It's called Action Surge and you can multiclass into more then just 2 classes if you want.
Slav Mcgopnik Jun 17, 2024 @ 9:29pm 
Originally posted by DeMasked:
Originally posted by harlequin_corps:

"The Ranger/Paladin/Bard capability to gain a fighting style should be ignored completely as they do not get Power Surge."

It's called Action Surge and you can multiclass into more then just 2 classes if you want.
To be fair, multi classing into more than one additional class is a bad idea unless you really know what you’re doing, and I can’t think of a single reasonable non challenge/achievement gaining build that uses more than 3 classes total.
DeMasked Jun 17, 2024 @ 9:45pm 
Originally posted by Slav Mcgopnik:
Originally posted by DeMasked:

It's called Action Surge and you can multiclass into more then just 2 classes if you want.
To be fair, multi classing into more than one additional class is a bad idea unless you really know what you’re doing, and I can’t think of a single reasonable non challenge/achievement gaining build that uses more than 3 classes total.

6 Fighter Champion, 4 Rogue Thief, 1 Cleric Tempest, 1 Warlock the Great Old One.

Half Orc Dual Wield Melee Crit Build is pretty fun. Both the 1 level dips are tied to crits so in that way it's kinda a meme. Fog Cloud + Items is great. AoE Fear chance on Crit can be fun. Also 3 Feats due to Fighter / Rogue both having more Feats then other classes.
AokiYakumo Jun 17, 2024 @ 9:57pm 
Originally posted by Slav Mcgopnik:
Originally posted by DeMasked:

It's called Action Surge and you can multiclass into more then just 2 classes if you want.
To be fair, multi classing into more than one additional class is a bad idea unless you really know what you’re doing, and I can’t think of a single reasonable non challenge/achievement gaining build that uses more than 3 classes total.

Well, to be fair, a popular Water Support for if you are running any of the Ice/Lightning DPS builds is Cleric 6 (Life), Wizard 1 (for Conjure Elemental), Druid 5 (Land) (for extra recovery charges and for extra utility or buff spells to round out your kit such as Haste or Misty Step). It focuses on keeping Wet on for as long as possible while buffing the team with 2x Bless thanks to Mystra's Blessing or amping your main phys DPS with Haste while holding Sanctuary. It's also kinda cheese, since Create Water, amusingly enough, won't break Sanctuary, so you can debuff and buff while being almost COMPLETELY protected from harm.
harlequin_corps Jun 18, 2024 @ 5:10pm 
Sometimes it's just easier to go 1 level in cleric for heavy armor/shield. There are many issues with using Bard for a fighting style. No shield for one. Granted, you can use the medium armor feat to get a shield with your 18 dex at level 4 but it really defeats the point because not only are you not getting Sharpshooter you are wasting a feat for something you get for free when you get heavy armor/shield at the same time you are getting a fighting style. The other issue with College of Swords is you burn Inspiration even if you miss, whereas you don't burn Superiority if you miss with Battlemaster. And add the higher HP and extra feat.
[Edit] Although, lets be honest, Slashing Flourish (Ranged) makes up for a lot, 32 Damage max/22 Damage avg at level 3 with 17 dex, with the capability to split damage between 2 targets, noice. Not so sure about the Mobile Flourish though, nice to have, but the best CC is death.
As far as multiclassing into a third class, it's assumed that this specline you would go into Ranger for the +2 to hit Archery Fighting style and the added Ambush attack, plus 3 to initiative and some basic utility spells.
[Edit] Bard only allows Duelling and Two Weapon Fighting, Ranger has Archery
You already have Sneak Attack at 2D6 and 2 Bonus Actions. That +2 to hit is, for all intentional terms +4 Dex. So at 20 Dex, you are essentially 24 dex for to hit, 26 Dex for initiative.
Hunter's mark is another variable. When you look at it it's just applying a poison in combat, that you have to apply for each target. You could do that, or you could apply a poison before you go into combat and do a damage type that can be saved against, whereas the Hunter's Mark hits with the original attack roll. At what point does using a bonus action to apply Hunter's Mark beat the damage from that one bonus attack.
[Edit] What Hunter's Mark SHOULD do is add a +2 to hit the target, or even make attacks with Advantage like a single target Fairy Fire. Not sure why it doesn't, probably because it would make it OP.
But that's, you know.. end game stuff. This post is more for leading up to Level 4 and what Feat to get at Level 4.
One side note. The damage at level 4 with this specline is pretty extreme, you can overkill very easily, so if you are making a raw attack that will auto offhand, don't do that and hit the offhand bonus attack first on it's own in case you one shot with that single shot. The double shot auto offhand will still go off even after a target is killed with the first main hand. Saving it means you can use the main hand for a different target.
For level 12 there's a few routes you can take.
Fighter 5/Thief 3/Ranger 4. This gives you TWF/Archery, 2 feats, Ambush
Fighter 6/Thief 3/Ranger 3. This gives you TWF/Archery, 2 feats, Ambush
In fact this specline is so ambiguous at this stage if you look at the possible pros/cons for either choice there is no perceivable difference. Spells are the same, HP is the same. It's all the same. It's at level 13 though that things begin to change. And you have to go Fighter 8 at level 14 for a 3rd feat. But you need mods for that for BG3. Vanilla cap is 12. And let's be honest. You need to be a beast at lvl 4 and stay a beast until maybe lvl 9 ish when things start to become easier.
Last edited by harlequin_corps; Jun 18, 2024 @ 8:04pm
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Date Posted: Jun 17, 2024 @ 9:29am
Posts: 37