It turns out, Wizard is better than Sorcerer

[NeoStormer]

You would think it is the other way around but realistically, Wizard is more sustainable without long rests due to arcane recoveries, which increase over time along the spell slots.

So, you could say Sorcerer could hurl more spells per turn, but the utility and overall Wizard experience overshadows it.

[DontMisunderstand]

Yeah go figure the caster with more spells available and casts those spells better is the better caster.

[[TG] zac]

Depends.
Sheer variety of spells wizard wins.
In table top the bladesinger is also insanely good for making spell/martial hybrids but it sadly doesn't exist in game.

Pure burst damage potential sorcerer wins.
Ability to twin haste is also brokenly powerful on anything but the harder difficulties.

There are also a number of items in table top like the bloodwell vial that don't exist in the game (yet, mods may fix that) that give sorcerer a big boost to how many sorcery points they have)

Where sorcerer really gets broken though is when combined with warlock to get spells back on a short rest which can then be turned into sorcery points.
IE what is known as the Coffee lock in table top and gets absolutely broken there when combined with divine soul sorcerer which has access to restoration which can remove exhaustion.

[Tanner_Lindberg]

There is no world where wizard is better than sorcerer lmao.

[Tanner_Lindberg]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Yeah go figure the caster with more spells available and casts those spells better is the better caster.

More spells don't mean anything when 90% of the spells in this game are horrible. And just spamming the one spell that will do the most dmg in that turn is almost always the best play. There's a reason every single meta honor build is just throw out as much dmg as possible. Cc is pointless if it's dead healing is pointless if it can't hurt you. Also charisma is objectively better than int you can get more of it so sorcerer is also better at actually casting the spells how can you be so wrong?

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by TG zac:

Depends.
Sheer variety of spells wizard wins.
In table top the bladesinger is also insanely good for making spell/martial hybrids but it sadly doesn't exist in game.

Pure burst damage potential sorcerer wins.
Ability to twin haste is also brokenly powerful on anything but the harder difficulties.

There are also a number of items in table top like the bloodwell vial that don't exist in the game (yet, mods may fix that) that give sorcerer a big boost to how many sorcery points they have)

Where sorcerer really gets broken though is when combined with warlock to get spells back on a short rest which can then be turned into sorcery points.
IE what is known as the Coffee lock in table top and gets absolutely broken there when combined with divine soul sorcerer which has access to restoration which can remove exhaustion.

5e and BG3 are not the same thing. Twinned spell haste doesn't mean anything when you can have infinite potions that give haste anyway. Not only that... it's not all that useful a strategy. It's only particularly strong in situations where you either would've been better off casting a different spell or in situations that end before the enemy gets to move as a result of it. The former is obviously bad, and the latter is a waste of resources.

There's also the objective fact that an Evocation Wizard flat out does more damage than a sorcerer. Period. While also removing the only downside to all of the good burst damage spells. Sorcerers spend sorcery points to still let the party take friendly fire damage. And this trend continues by going to other Wizard subclasses. Objectively, no matter what your sorcerer wants to do, you can make a Wizard be just better at it without sacrificing anything. On top of that, Wizards also just flat out get more spell slots via Arcane Recovery. The only thing that makes Sorcerers not strictly inferior to Wizards is that they use Charisma instead of Intelligence.

[guard65]

My Bard(2)/Wizard Evoc is a utility Ice wizard that casts mostly cantrips and a spell once in a while. Same as a Sorc except I Swiss army knife my spells all over the place. I also have a Cleric(2) / Sorc Tempest build also a cantrip spammer since I must conserve spell use.

Of course my games the enemy is OP against me (mods) and you have conserve your spells for when nothing goes your way and it will go bad for you often.

[Harukage]

Evocation wizard flat out outdamages your sorcerer just by using humble magic missiles, while also throwing aoe spells without any risk of damaging friendlies. Abjuration wizard can plainly walk at frontline and throw around those low range and caster centered spells without much risk. Divination wizard is an ultimate lucky slot machine. Transmutation wizard adds mire layers of utility to his party even above other wizards. Etc..
Add increadeable utility of a wizard with spells like Knock, Grant Flyght, Gust of Wind, Greater invisibility etc, that you WILL NOT take on a sorcerer, with his pitifull amount of spells known. And last but not the least, sorc can't take the coolest arcane spells, like Tenser's Transformation or Evard's Black Tentacles.
Sorcer is just about throwing fireballs. Just admit it. Unless you are a Shadow sorc or something, wich this game does not have.
Plain and simple.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Why not both?

Lvl 2 Wizard (for the subclass) Lv 10 Sorc for metamagics and sorc pts.

[IlluminaZero]

My general attitude is:
Divination and Abjuration Wizard for AOE CC and combat utility.
Transmutation Wizard for camp potion brewer

Sorcerer for Twinned single target buffs/CC (I agree haste is overrated. Speed potions, concentration, AND the potential lost round)

I'm actually conflicted on Evocation Wizard vs Sorcerer for blasting. But that is partly as I have an extreme bias for using Martials for damage purposes.

That and - The party composition just isn't very arcane focused by default. Gale being the only natural Wizard with no Sorcerer << Might just respec my Wyll into a Warlock 2/Sorc with that in mind... But I like him as Warlock/Bard(blade)...

[IlluminaZero]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Why not both?

Lvl 2 Wizard (for the subclass) Lv 10 Sorc for metamagics and sorc pts.

Abjuration and Evocation Wizard want a few levels...
Level 10 - Empowered Evocation
Level 6 - Projected Ward (Subclass Feature)

That may work with Divination wizard but - Personally I don't want to be bombed with random divination prompts all game.

Chances are if you're not using one of the dominant schools you are better off actually going Cleric. You still get full spell progression but Cleric has a bunch of other nice side perks. That and the spell selection isn't redundant.

[Orion Invictus]

Sorcerers: Magic incarnate.
Wizards: People who read too many books and think they're special for doing so.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by Tanner_Lindberg:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Yeah go figure the caster with more spells available and casts those spells better is the better caster.

More spells don't mean anything when 90% of the spells in this game are horrible. And just spamming the one spell that will do the most dmg in that turn is almost always the best play. There's a reason every single meta honor build is just throw out as much dmg as possible. Cc is pointless if it's dead healing is pointless if it can't hurt you. Also charisma is objectively better than int you can get more of it so sorcerer is also better at actually casting the spells how can you be so wrong?

It's funny how you seldom see a game system where pure damage builds are disfavored at the high difficulty levels.

[Wokelander]

Alpha strike capacity is superior in most games really

[Rothgar57]

I just finished my first play through, tactician. Portent dies where pretty clutch for me on my Tactician play through. Twin haste would solve most if not all encounters in tactican mode. Portent dies and wizard is probably stronger in Honor mode. WIth haste nerf.

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by NeoStormer:

You would think it is the other way around but realistically, Wizard is more sustainable without long rests due to arcane recoveries, which increase over time along the spell slots.

Long rests are not a limited commodity in this game.

In BG1 and BG2 (2.5e), mages ("wizards") are the most powerful pure class at high levels. Even though they have the distinct limitation that all their spells (not just their spell slots, but their spells) have to be preloaded. If you take 3 magic missiles, you can only cast MM three times. Etc.

Sorcerers basically get access to the 5e casting rules -- can cast any spell they have, without pre-selecting them, but they have a limited number of spells they can select from.

In 5e, wizards get *both* advantages -- they can learn any spell, and they can act like 2.5e sorcerers and choose which of their active spells they want to cast. 5e wizards are more powerful than either mages or sorcerers from 2.5e in terms of mechanics. But their spells have been *heavily* nerfed by the need for concentration.

If 5e wanted to retain the uniqueness of sorcerers, they could have restricted the spell options (like they do) but eliminated concentration -- allowing sorcerers to cast fewer spells but also allowing them to combo spells that wizards can't combo. That would be very interesting.

Instead, they are mostly just weaker wizards whose main advantage is that they can be easily multi-classed with warlocks or bards.