*Spoilers* The Emperor motives

[FenvalTTV]

I finished my first playthrough a few days ago and oh my, what a beautiful game. I loved it. One of the memorable character of this adventure still remains very enigmatic to me, so I would love your opinion on the matter ; The Emperor. I cannot place it on a scale and I could never fully trust him, even if in the end I decided to team with him.

Here's a few facts to help us start.

The good points :

- He is an ex adventurer/hero bearing the name Balduran, that much has been proven not only by his remaining belongings but also by the wyrm in Baldur's Gate

- While he is an Illithid, he doesn't want more to be created and he doesn't ally himself with any other questionable creature.

- He is an Illithid, which means that his soul has been "destroyed", and yet, he seems to be fully aware of his identity and even remains attached to his past, as shown when he mourns his old friend, his adventures and his belongings

The "I don't know what to think of it" points :

- He chose to protect us. Was it by pure luck, because we were the holder of the artifacts? Or were we chosen somehow?

- He tried to seduce us. Was it out of loneliness? Was it to manipulate us better? Did he genuinely love us?

The "Bad" points :

- He was rather eager to convince us to use the tadpole power, suggesting we nurture it.

- Despite being an ex hero and prominent figure, he rather enjoys being an Illithid.

- He was very demanding by moment, a good example was when he demanded the netherstones from us.

- He kept Orpheus prisonner. While the gith are not the friendliest of people, it's hard to imagine someone with a good aligment abusing of someone like that. Perhaps an extreme chaotic good could do it, if it's for the sake of someone else... But even then, that would be abusing someone who used to be a victim (the gith being ex slaves to the mindflayers).

- He did not even consider Raphael proposition, the crown being stuck in Avernus could have been a solution, and yet, it seems he wanted to go with his plan.

- He fed on criminal, his moral code seems rather subjective.

So, what do you think of him? Is he good, neutral? Is he doing this for his own profit or out duty/altruism? Do you think we, as a player, influenced his person or was he just testing us to adapt the course of his actions?

[Nani!?!?]

He's bad writing that Larian threw together without a clear plan

[Lur Nen Rue]

Good guy, he let me turn into displacer beast but screw my stats along the way (well there is plenty of status change equipment anyways)

Unlike certain goddess who ask to bomba'd the last Boss, emperor seems reasonable

[MatteBlack]

I have 2 theories why he is the way he is
1. Larian wanted to expand more on his story but wanted to also keep him engimatic so we would be intrigued by him. This may have resulted in confusion and especially if you miss some tidbits here and there or just don't remember the exact details of the story he revelas to you making it a mess

2. There is one explanation/cinematic that he tells us that when he turned illithid the elder brain used him as a scout because he wasnt just an Illithid but retained a lot of his former experiences as he had a strong personna (maybe some additonal powers while an adventurer which helped him retain memories as he was an adventurer like us so who knows). He says he is not balduran anymore and that balduran died the day he got turned into an Illithid. Also I tihnk the reaosn why he is so demanding in getting the netherstones and not letting the crown go and keeping orpheus imprisoned and later on consume him is because he wanted to wield that power. That is what makes adventurers adventurers (and he was/is one) is the temptation by power and pursuit of power. I think he just wanted to see what it would be like and all the scenes and leadup to that moment was just a ploy by him to make us be influenced by him easier.

After all it is an RPG and I think an enigmatic character like him is a very good way of throwing a big moral question into the journey we undertake where we actually have to deeply think of what is our next step going to be. After all actions have consequences as Raphael says/hints on multiple occasions. It is your story you are writing.

TLDR: Larian made a bit of a mess of his story or he is kept enigmatic so we wonder about his motivations and make our own conclusions on him.

[Celeborn]

Originally posted by MatteBlack:

I have 2 theories why he is the way he is
1. Larian wanted to expand more on his story but wanted to also keep him engimatic so we would be intrigued by him. This may have resulted in confusion and especially if you miss some tidbits here and there or just don't remember the exact details of the story he revelas to you making it a mess

2. There is one explanation/cinematic that he tells us that when he turned illithid the elder brain used him as a scout because he wasnt just an Illithid but retained a lot of his former experiences as he had a strong personna (maybe some additonal powers while an adventurer which helped him retain memories as he was an adventurer like us so who knows). He says he is not balduran anymore and that balduran died the day he got turned into an Illithid. Also I tihnk the reaosn why he is so demanding in getting the netherstones and not letting the crown go and keeping orpheus imprisoned and later on consume him is because he wanted to wield that power. That is what makes adventurers adventurers (and he was/is one) is the temptation by power and pursuit of power. I think he just wanted to see what it would be like and all the scenes and leadup to that moment was just a ploy by him to make us be influenced by him easier.

After all it is an RPG and I think an enigmatic character like him is a very good way of throwing a big moral question into the journey we undertake where we actually have to deeply think of what is our next step going to be. After all actions have consequences as Raphael says/hints on multiple occasions. It is your story you are writing.

TLDR: Larian made a bit of a mess of his story or he is kept enigmatic so we wonder about his motivations and make our own conclusions on him.

Well one tidbit with illithids is that some people can retain their personalities more then others. This is seen by the fact that they do not infect gnomes because they will retain their personality and everything so they will be friendlier/harder to control when not connected as illithids are essentially mind controlled by the elder brain that consumes other illithids to grow itself.

The whole transformation we know gets rid of the soul in that you will not go to any of the planes known planes when die so celestial, elysium, hells etc. Which this aspect of losing a soul is what many damn illithids and why when certain companion changes some people say that is a bad end while others say it's good since they are still themselves.

The Orpheus part gets mentioned on why he didn't and can see from Orpheus himself that he does not view illithids kindly even though there are some that are not bad which in the game kind of gets mentioned with the whole society/lodge thing with the gith egg and is a being inherently evil. For the Emperor he knew that he prob would be killed. Hence the whole keeping him sealed.

He is selfish but the instances in the game where people condemn him such as his best friend the dragon and Orpheus both saw him being illithid as bad and saw killing him as the only option.

Overall illithids while have content on them still have aspects not explored. Saving orph is obviously the for the greater good of gith but we also know that there is doubts and resistance within them so it isn't necessarily they are now doomed and the knowledge of how to sever the elder brain connections isn't lost and could possibly be used.

Not saying the writing is perfect but believe that a motif they wanted to be in the game was is evil inherent and how evil actions could be born (ketheric, emperor, society, deep gnomes, nightsong [she is a bit unhinged for being daughter of selune])

[Morgian]

You learn from the brain that it made him do what he did. It was manipulating the assumed bad guys, too, knowing that the crown could not hold it.

[sylver56]

Originally posted by Nani!?!?:

He's bad writing that Larian threw together without a clear plan

Bad writing without a clear plan ? What an odd thing to say. Once you understand his background you understand his motivations. He is an ambitious creature who likes the powers given by his illithid form, he wants to save Baldur's Gate and he is ready to make others make big sacrifices for it. He is not evil, he is certainly not very good either. And when playing my first playthrough I enjoyed the Balduran reveal when doing the Anzur quest.

[emreyigit1967]

Initially I thought that he was just evil and manipulative, especially after his "you're my puppet" speech, etc, but now I think differently. The Emperor is essentially you if you decide to be too ambitious. And how would you behave in his boots? :)

[Trolleur_Durden]

The Emperor is the embodiment of neutrality in the D&D ethos. He is pragmatic and amoral. He's not evil for the sake or fun of it, but he's not constrained by morality rules either.

I liked his writing overall, but there was indeed a few weak points, the most memorable one being how easy he switch sides if you decide to free Orpheus. It feels like a hastly "DM plot salvaging".

[x_equals_speed]

I feel like he only makes sense in any one particular playthrough.

Across multiple plays where you make different choices you get a whole load of "His personality seemed to be this, but in those circumstances it turns out to be that instead."

I think he'd have been better as a high INT manipulative character who feigned emotional vulnerability in order to influence Tav but really felt none of it. That would have explained his actions in most playthroughs and been consistent with the missing soul thing that is brought up but never really explained or seems to affect his personality. It wouldn't have required a lot of changes, just things like if he controlled the Elder Brain in the final fight and you said "Maybe don't take control of everything" he replied "Actually I'm gonna".

[Steven]

This thread was quite old before the recent post, so we're locking it to prevent confusion.