Skill Points and Spells (depth is gone)

[SP2244]

I have played DOS1&2, Pathfinder 1&2, and many others games similar (my favorite type game). Kind of shocked playing a sorcerer at level 5 I only added 1 spell of level 3 added and have yet to update any new skill point by allocating like did in all of these other games.... I am feeling like 90% of players will be playing almost exact same sorcerer since your options are so limited!

I have only found a couple spells that seem to hit more than 30% and do any damage. The Magic is very underwhelming .... in the other games (all) we had so many options for spells and skill points to customize characters. Maybe I missed it in camp but just not seeing any options, in fact 2 of my characters have no options, just say update to next level. I am not understanding why this game took so long to make if really took away all the complexity ? I can no longer custom my character with skill points like have always done, my characters visually (new ones) are fixed with one per type. My spells as go up are only 1 at level 5 (really!). My Barbarian is giving me no options, hit button , all predetermined. What is more complex than DOS2 many years ago? There are lots of cut scenes that are good at telling story , so that is good, but not uncommon for modern games. So where is the flexibility and customization to play how want.

Funny , I wanted a dwarf as extra character, but only option was for a women that looked like man - really! Not playing the dwarf part member - so chose female barbarian instead. Not even option to choose male or female. Pathfinder Wrath has some issue for sure.... but that game is 10x more depth than this so far, with much less time to create. I hope there is more to this game.... my replay-ability seems very limited right now.

[Membi]

Originally posted by SP2244:

I have played DOS1&2, Pathfinder 1&2, and many others games similar (my favorite type game). Kind of shocked playing a sorcerer at level 5 I only added 1 spell of level 3 added and have yet to update any new skill point by allocating like did in all of these other games.... I am feeling like 90% of players will be playing almost exact same sorcerer since your options are so limited!

I have only found a couple spells that seem to hit more than 30% and do any damage. The Magic is very underwhelming .... in the other games (all) we had so many options for spells and skill points to customize characters. Maybe I missed it in camp but just not seeing any options, in fact 2 of my characters have no options, just say update to next level. I am not understanding why this game took so long to make if really took away all the complexity ? I can no longer custom my character with skill points like have always done, my characters visually (new ones) are fixed with one per type. My spells as go up are only 1 at level 5 (really!). My Barbarian is giving me no options, hit button , all predetermined. What is more complex than DOS2 many years ago? There are lots of cut scenes that are good at telling story , so that is good, but not uncommon for modern games. So where is the flexibility and customization to play how want.

Funny , I wanted a dwarf as extra character, but only option was for a women that looked like man - really! Not playing the dwarf part member - so chose female barbarian instead. Not even option to choose male or female. Pathfinder Wrath has some issue for sure.... but that game is 10x more depth than this so far, with much less time to create. I hope there is more to this game.... my replay-ability seems very limited right now.

Well...for starters, The other games you mentioned are based on different rulesets compared to BG3.

DOS is Larians own rule system and was made with the intention that players wouldn't be limited in any way, hence the spell books, action points and respec etc.

Pathfinder is based on DnD 3.5 which had a lot of customization but at the same time a lot of bloat and bad feats. Most of the fights you simply start by spending a minute or two just prebuffing yourself.

Because of forementioned problems with DnD 3.5, and the really bad reception of DnD 4 WotC(Wizards of the Coast) wanted the next edition to be more similar to DnD 3.5 but with a lot less bloat and easier for beginners to learn and understand.
So in the current edition, DnD 5(which BG3 is based on) they use bounded accuracy (which means that bonuses are much smaller in value but greater in effect) and also implemented concentration for the majority of spells to hinder endless prebuffing. The skills you choose in combat become more tactical, (since you have fewer options), the downside is that the character creation and leveling up became too streamlined and boring.

All rulesets have their cons and pros and all of them can offer depth depending on the DM making the campaign. Remember, a wide variation of choices doesn't necessarily mean a deeper game since you'll soon learn which choices are good and which ones that...suck, to be blunt.

As for taking time, Larian has worked on BG3 for six years, which is quite normal development time. A lot of the work has gone to graphics, voice acting and keeping track of possible permutations off of players actions in the game.

[I.R.R.I.S.H.]

Dude, tell me you know nothing about DnD 5e and Tolkien-esque fantasy without telling me you know nothing about DnD 5e and Tolkien-esque fantasy. Take a look at the actual warlock class in 5e.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/warlock

Warlocks are pact spellcasters, not full spellcasters. This means that they don't get as many spell slots nor as many spells to cast as a full caster, BUT they get all of their spell slots back on a short rest. It's a trade-off.

If you only have one spell at level 5 then you must have multiclassed and only put one level in warlock or something. Somewhere you messed up.

There are definitely feminine dwarf character options. I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you accidentally chose whatever the woke "I identify as a woman" option was where it says your character is female but really they aren't. Regardless, dwarves in Middle Earth were all masculine. Even the dwarf women had beards. DnD is heavily influenced by Tolkien's literature, and DnD dwarf women did have beards in the early versions of DnD.

https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/y2eebq/female_dwarves_appreciation_post_i_think_my_new/

Not an option to choose male or female? Are you even looking at the options in the character creation screen? All of your complaints sound like you just don't know how to play the game or how to read the menus.

[SP2244]

Originally posted by Membi:

Originally posted by SP2244:

I have played DOS1&2, Pathfinder 1&2, and many others games similar (my favorite type game). Kind of shocked playing a sorcerer at level 5 I only added 1 spell of level 3 added and have yet to update any new skill point by allocating like did in all of these other games.... I am feeling like 90% of players will be playing almost exact same sorcerer since your options are so limited!

I have only found a couple spells that seem to hit more than 30% and do any damage. The Magic is very underwhelming .... in the other games (all) we had so many options for spells and skill points to customize characters. Maybe I missed it in camp but just not seeing any options, in fact 2 of my characters have no options, just say update to next level. I am not understanding why this game took so long to make if really took away all the complexity ? I can no longer custom my character with skill points like have always done, my characters visually (new ones) are fixed with one per type. My spells as go up are only 1 at level 5 (really!). My Barbarian is giving me no options, hit button , all predetermined. What is more complex than DOS2 many years ago? There are lots of cut scenes that are good at telling story , so that is good, but not uncommon for modern games. So where is the flexibility and customization to play how want.

Funny , I wanted a dwarf as extra character, but only option was for a women that looked like man - really! Not playing the dwarf part member - so chose female barbarian instead. Not even option to choose male or female. Pathfinder Wrath has some issue for sure.... but that game is 10x more depth than this so far, with much less time to create. I hope there is more to this game.... my replay-ability seems very limited right now.

Well...for starters, The other games you mentioned are based on different rulesets compared to BG3.

DOS is Larians own rule system and was made with the intention that players wouldn't be limited in any way, hence the spell books, action points and respec etc.

Pathfinder is based on DnD 3.5 which had a lot of customization but at the same time a lot of bloat and bad feats. Most of the fights you simply start by spending a minute or two just prebuffing yourself.

Because of forementioned problems with DnD 3.5, and the really bad reception of DnD 4 WotC(Wizards of the Coast) wanted the next edition to be more similar to DnD 3.5 but with a lot less bloat and easier for beginners to learn and understand.
So in the current edition, DnD 5(which BG3 is based on) they use bounded accuracy (which means that bonuses are much smaller in value but greater in effect) and also implemented concentration for the majority of spells to hinder endless prebuffing. The skills you choose in combat become more tactical, (since you have fewer options), the downside is that the character creation and leveling up became too streamlined and boring.

All rulesets have their cons and pros and all of them can offer depth depending on the DM making the campaign. Remember, a wide variation of choices doesn't necessarily mean a deeper game since you'll soon learn which choices are good and which ones that...suck, to be blunt.

As for taking time, Larian has worked on BG3 for six years, which is quite normal development time. A lot of the work has gone to graphics, voice acting and keeping track of possible permutations off of players actions in the game.

I appreciate what you said, but fact is no excuse! If you go online now you will see many are upset with the hit chances, and are frustrated with telling have 75% chance to hit and then says miss... or a person standing right in front of you and miss, etc. The magic is simple broken in game , it is kindergarten level even compared to DOS1 .... this is why people need to stop paying full price in early access....they have no incentive to make depth ---cyperpunk77 all over again.

[SP2244]

Originally posted by I.R.R.I.S.H.:

Dude, tell me you know nothing about DnD 5e and Tolkien-esque fantasy without telling me you know nothing about DnD 5e and Tolkien-esque fantasy. Take a look at the actual warlock class in 5e.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/warlock

Warlocks are pact spellcasters, not full spellcasters. This means that they don't get as many spell slots nor as many spells to cast as a full caster, BUT they get all of their spell slots back on a short rest. It's a trade-off.

If you only have one spell at level 5 then you must have multiclassed and only put one level in warlock or something. Somewhere you messed up.

There are definitely feminine dwarf character options. I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you accidentally chose whatever the woke "I identify as a woman" option was where it says your character is female but really they aren't. Regardless, dwarves in Middle Earth were all masculine. Even the dwarf women had beards. DnD is heavily influenced by Tolkien's literature, and DnD dwarf women did have beards in the early versions of DnD.

https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/y2eebq/female_dwarves_appreciation_post_i_think_my_new/

Not an option to choose male or female? Are you even looking at the options in the character creation screen? All of your complaints sound like you just don't know how to play the game or how to read the menus.

Hey dude! No idea what you are talking about ... there is only a base
option to choose party additions of a class.... have you even played the game? I am not talking original character build ..... learn to read and comprehend. Thank you

[Drake]

The problem with hit chance is that most people don't know the philosophy of dnd and the d20 because in a video game you don't have 2 pages in a rulebook explaining what is hit chance in dnd...

A failure in a d20 system is not a miss in the strict sense. It just means you did 0 damage. What happened is let to the appreciation to the GM to describe.
When you fail it can mean any reason by roleplay standards, you missed, or the enemy blocked, or you failed to penetrate armour, or you slipped, or magic blocked the hit, a god protected the enemy etc.
That's why the base chance to hit is 55% in dnd.

Getting 95% to hit is hard and requires magic or exceptional prowess.
60 to 80% is roughly what happens in most cases depending on what bonus you apply.

[SP2244]

Originally posted by Drake:

The problem with hit chance is that most people don't know the philosophy of dnd and the d20 because in a video game you don't have 2 pages in a rulebook explaining what is hit chance in dnd...

A failure in a d20 system is not a miss in the strict sense. It just means you did 0 damage. What happened is let to the appreciation to the GM to describe.
When you fail it can mean any reason by roleplay standards, you missed, or the enemy blocked, or you failed to penetrate armour, or you slipped, or magic blocked the hit, a god protected the enemy etc.
That's why the base chance to hit is 55% in dnd.

Getting 95% to hit is hard and requires magic or exceptional prowess.
60 to 80% is roughly what happens in most cases depending on what bonus you apply.

I am sorry 50-80% is BS! Everyone online is complaining about low hit chances - I am done with act 1, and I heard act 2 is even worse! I don't give a XXXX about DND, you loyalist drive me crazy, the new people have not even heard of DND , get a clue. The game has to be well received by all, not just the 60 yr old DND old community. The overall adventure is 9 rating, the combat is about a 5, so sad!

[pascal.difolco]

Originally posted by SP2244:

Originally posted by Drake:

The problem with hit chance is that most people don't know the philosophy of dnd and the d20 because in a video game you don't have 2 pages in a rulebook explaining what is hit chance in dnd...

A failure in a d20 system is not a miss in the strict sense. It just means you did 0 damage. What happened is let to the appreciation to the GM to describe.
When you fail it can mean any reason by roleplay standards, you missed, or the enemy blocked, or you failed to penetrate armour, or you slipped, or magic blocked the hit, a god protected the enemy etc.
That's why the base chance to hit is 55% in dnd.

Getting 95% to hit is hard and requires magic or exceptional prowess.
60 to 80% is roughly what happens in most cases depending on what bonus you apply.

I am sorry 50-80% is BS! Everyone online is complaining about low hit chances - I am done with act 1, and I heard act 2 is even worse! I don't give a XXXX about DND, you loyalist drive me crazy, the new people have not even heard of DND , get a clue. The game has to be well received by all, not just the 60 yr old DND old community. The overall adventure is 9 rating, the combat is about a 5, so sad!

The game work as it should for a 5ed DnD based game, now you can not like it and go play Diablo4...

[n#n#m#]

Originally posted by SP2244:

I am sorry 50-80% is BS! Everyone online is complaining about low hit chances

Then they need to learn how to play. Use debuffs on your enemies, use buffs on your party, attack from high ground. You can do 1 of these and your hit chance will improve drastically, but people choose to ignore all that in favour of dumb facerolling and then get surprised when they can't hit anything lol.

[Faolchu]

Originally posted by SP2244:

Originally posted by Drake:

The problem with hit chance is that most people don't know the philosophy of dnd and the d20 because in a video game you don't have 2 pages in a rulebook explaining what is hit chance in dnd...

A failure in a d20 system is not a miss in the strict sense. It just means you did 0 damage. What happened is let to the appreciation to the GM to describe.
When you fail it can mean any reason by roleplay standards, you missed, or the enemy blocked, or you failed to penetrate armour, or you slipped, or magic blocked the hit, a god protected the enemy etc.
That's why the base chance to hit is 55% in dnd.

Getting 95% to hit is hard and requires magic or exceptional prowess.
60 to 80% is roughly what happens in most cases depending on what bonus you apply.

I am sorry 50-80% is BS! Everyone online is complaining about low hit chances - I am done with act 1, and I heard act 2 is even worse! I don't give a XXXX about DND, you loyalist drive me crazy, the new people have not even heard of DND , get a clue. The game has to be well received by all, not just the 60 yr old DND old community. The overall adventure is 9 rating, the combat is about a 5, so sad!

You really went off rails with your statement here. You don't want to play a game that is based on D&D rulesets, go play a different game. Don't assume the community is over 60-years old as well. Those are low insults based on nothing as it is the young age demographic that starts to fall in love with D&D.

[lucohan]

Originally posted by SP2244:

I have played DOS1&2, Pathfinder 1&2, and many others games similar (my favorite type game). Kind of shocked playing a sorcerer at level 5 I only added 1 spell of level 3 added and have yet to update any new skill point by allocating like did in all of these other games.... I am feeling like 90% of players will be playing almost exact same sorcerer since your options are so limited!

I have only found a couple spells that seem to hit more than 30% and do any damage. The Magic is very underwhelming .... in the other games (all) we had so many options for spells and skill points to customize characters. Maybe I missed it in camp but just not seeing any options, in fact 2 of my characters have no options, just say update to next level. I am not understanding why this game took so long to make if really took away all the complexity ? I can no longer custom my character with skill points like have always done, my characters visually (new ones) are fixed with one per type. My spells as go up are only 1 at level 5 (really!). My Barbarian is giving me no options, hit button , all predetermined. What is more complex than DOS2 many years ago? There are lots of cut scenes that are good at telling story , so that is good, but not uncommon for modern games. So where is the flexibility and customization to play how want.

Funny , I wanted a dwarf as extra character, but only option was for a women that looked like man - really! Not playing the dwarf part member - so chose female barbarian instead. Not even option to choose male or female. Pathfinder Wrath has some issue for sure.... but that game is 10x more depth than this so far, with much less time to create. I hope there is more to this game.... my replay-ability seems very limited right now.

I totally agree. The customization is gone. I am advancing in the game just click click clik my path forward and taking no relevant decision. Leveling up in two clicks and 10 seconds. Is almost like a hack and slash.

First time in a game of this type that i did not find the need to write the stats of my players on a piece of paper to try to optimize.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by SP2244:

I appreciate what you said, but fact is no excuse! If you go online now you will see many are upset with the hit chances, and are frustrated with telling have 75% chance to hit and then says miss... or a person standing right in front of you and miss, etc. The magic is simple broken in game , it is kindergarten level even compared to DOS1 .... this is why people need to stop paying full price in early access....they have no incentive to make depth ---cyperpunk77 all over again.

10 people out of millions isn't a reason to change the game. People were always going to be upset by RNG. Even in XCOM, where hit chances go to 99% quite often, people still complain about missing that 1% because they experienced failure.

Chance to hit is also not related to distance, this isn't Wasteland 2. Someone being next to you doesn't mean you're going to hit them any easier. Knights dueled "next to each other" and still had to find a way to penetrate the other guy's armor. This game is based on a tabletop wargame where armor was pretty much all of your defense, way back before even magic was added.

As for magic being "kindergarten" level, welcome to every RPG. Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, GURPS, 1e, 2e, 4e, 5e, basically every major RPG does character building this way with simple characteristics that don't bog down the roleplaying. This is important for the sake of balance and setting control. The gamemaster has to run the game and he can't run it effectively if every build is wildly different in capabilities from every other build.

The problem 3e and Pathfinder have is that most of the team just sits around doing nothing while the character who specialized for this particular role does all the work because only he can role numbers that are high enough.

[Proper Skux]

You are literally just describing DnD5e being a game with limited build options and swingy dice odds. That's how it works and it's bad but like, it's a 5e game.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by Proper Skux:

You are literally just describing DnD5e being a game with limited build options and swingy dice odds. That's how it works and it's bad but like, it's a 5e game.

It's not bad. It takes the focus off of character building, which is important for new players and the tabletop experience (turns take like 30 seconds), and puts it back on tactical play, which the wargame it originated from was based on. Positioning matters and it simply doesn't matter in 3e/Pathfinder games where it amounts to a +2 flanking bonus when characters have +50 to attack. The creator of Dungeons and Dragons himself bashed 3e for being too rules heavy, all about character power and combat, and losing the fundamentals that forged the roleplaying hobby. To this day, most D&D fans abandoned 3e in favor of the more tactical boardgame that 5e has become, where your actions each turn have greater meaning than the out-of-combat buff fest they once were. This comes at the cost of simplicity but Chess has always been simple and people don't complain about that.

[Soothing Starlight]

so basically this complaint boils down to: this is a d&d game that got mainstream attention so i wanted to play it but i think that d&d rules are hard to follow so it should be dumbed down for people who don't want to learn how to play.

[Sid Icarus]

It's fine to dislike the D&D 5e ruleset, but it's been known for years that it's what BG3 is built around. If OP opted not to research what that was, that's on them.

And for the sake of fairness, if you know the system well, there is plenty of room for character customization and additional complexity in the form of multi-classing.