What're these God Tier high level spells?

[Chaosolous]

I know nothing of DnD beyond what this game has shown me.

Every time I hear something about the level cap being 12, people are pointing out that most 5e DnD campaigns stop at 12ish because after that the skills and spells you get are godlike and it's difficult to balance blah blah blah etc etc.

Like what? What are these spells that borderline turn you into a demi-god? What could possibly be so powerful? Provide examples if you can. Maybe from your own campaigns if you've played higher level ones.

[Snork]

Everyone is talking about the god tier spells but the real winner of 5E is the incredibly silly fireball wand buff.

[Overeagerdragon]

Messaggio originale di Chaosolous:

Alright so my question is, do people even bother incorporating these high level skills into campaigns?

I imagine on the TT side of things it's very difficult to balance something like that if you're the one creating the story (The DM if I'm not mistaken, again, don't play DnD... yet).

Someone mentioned it's skills you get "on your way to the end" which kind of makes sense. I would guess then that these are like "the final march" parts of the campaigns? The "You can't go back from this point so do your sidequests now" part of campaigns?

I run campaigns that are set to get my party all the way up to lvl 50... so yeah... but I'm a GM with over 15 years of experience

EDIT: For those interested... I've had campaigns where players actually took their own place amongst the gods and I play Red Threaded so in a next campaign players would actually be able to choose those, ex-player, deities as their domain...I've had campaigns with fullblown Liches who would become the prime evil for subsequent campaigns... heck in my upcoming campaign the party starts in a franchise tavern chain of one of my explayers who ended up as a dwarven engineer who fell down on his luck after HIS campaign and started said franchise xD

[Szorrin]

Messaggio originale di Overeagerdragon:

Messaggio originale di Midas:

Keep in mind that the way D&D is designed, level 20 was supposed to be the 'end'. Stuff you would only get at the climax of the campaign to beat the final challenge/boss/etc. You're not supposed to be going around adventuring with stuff like Wish and Time Stop.

A game that's designed to keep being played after level cap shouldn't even have stuff like that. but 20 is supposed to represent basically the upper pinnacle of what a hero can accomplish, up to nearly deific levels of power, so that's what it is.

Actually; no it's not... there's epic levels that go beyond even that.
Lvl 20 is basically the limit of what a normal adventurer can reach.... but for that "stuff legends are made of", those extraordinary few.... there's epic levels...

And even beyond that... Demigods, Deities, Creators, Ancient ones, Forgotten ones etc etc etc... Epic levels

You're mentioning a lot of stuff that doesn't exist in 5e.

[Overeagerdragon]

Messaggio originale di Szorrin:

Messaggio originale di Overeagerdragon:

Actually; no it's not... there's epic levels that go beyond even that.
Lvl 20 is basically the limit of what a normal adventurer can reach.... but for that "stuff legends are made of", those extraordinary few.... there's epic levels...

And even beyond that... Demigods, Deities, Creators, Ancient ones, Forgotten ones etc etc etc... Epic levels

You're mentioning a lot of stuff that doesn't exist in 5e.

Which is why I stayed away from 5e so far and my campaigns are set according to the 3.5E with just about any supplemental rulebook, addendum or compendium that was brought out for that edition... not that I don't like 5E.... I just have a bookcase full of 3.5e and it would be a shame to waste that ;)

EDIT: Keep in mind that it's all still set to the D20 standard rules so it's easy to adapt back and forwards too ;)

[Le Hatch]

The problem with these high level spells is inherently trying to incorporate or allow them ends up with infinite more headaches than its worth bothering with. They are sources of some of the most invalidation of challenge out there, egregious levels of attempts of rules lawyering, and otherwise make DMing a true burden to deal with at that point.

Its a metaphorical nuclear arms race at that point, just players being more and more ridiculous and the DM having to throw enough ♥♥♥♥ at the fan and hoping something worth anything sticks.

[doublejesus]

Messaggio originale di Chaosolous:

Alright so my question is, do people even bother incorporating these high level skills into campaigns?

I imagine on the TT side of things it's very difficult to balance something like that if you're the one creating the story (The DM if I'm not mistaken, again, don't play DnD... yet).

Someone mentioned it's skills you get "on your way to the end" which kind of makes sense. I would guess then that these are like "the final march" parts of the campaigns? The "You can't go back from this point so do your sidequests now" part of campaigns?

From what people I have spoke to that have high level characters like that they've been playing the same character for over 10 years. However most people do what are called "one shot" campaigns where you typically make a high level character to play for a single session or two where you do a short, quick story instead of a long epic campaign. I predominantly DM and even if I gave a milstone level every session (which would be ridiculous) it would still probably take a couple years to max out level just due to how long a single combat encounter can take sometimes.

[Handbanana]

Messaggio originale di Chaosolous:

Alright so my question is, do people even bother incorporating these high level skills into campaigns?

I imagine on the TT side of things it's very difficult to balance something like that if you're the one creating the story (The DM if I'm not mistaken, again, don't play DnD... yet).

Someone mentioned it's skills you get "on your way to the end" which kind of makes sense. I would guess then that these are like "the final march" parts of the campaigns? The "You can't go back from this point so do your sidequests now" part of campaigns?

Go play BG2 or Neverwinter nights and you can play with level 9 spells in a game that is balanced more or less. Both games are actually better than BG3 with the same amount of choices.

Believe it or not BG3 is not anything new or innovative. Its pretty much babys first D&D game. Everything is pretty basic and boring. The feats are extremely boring.

[Murderhobo]

Messaggio originale di Chaosolous:

Someone mentioned it's skills you get "on your way to the end" which kind of makes sense. I would guess then that these are like "the final march" parts of the campaigns? The "You can't go back from this point so do your sidequests now" part of campaigns?

I've played a ToA (Tomb of Annihilation) campaign that got us to level 20 about 2/3 into the campaign (to be fair, we did a couple of sidequests from Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Yawning Portal that the DM implemented in Chult), so yeah you can def get there beforehand depending on the DM.

[Humble]

20 level and beyond are sort of demi or small god, legend. but you can't do that in baldur's gate 3, but you can do in baldur's gate 2, thone of bhaal, I recalled.

In this game, as far as I'm aware, there is no god tier spell. It's ok, can be powerful if done correctly but all be all, no spell, I sure love time stop spell, wish spell, and massive damage/death for enemies right off bat.

[Makkura]

So, even if the characters get "oh so powerful" spells, and don't get me wrong, they are indeed powerful, but certainly you cannot cast the 24/7? They aren't cantrips, are they?

[Overeagerdragon]

Messaggio originale di Humble:

20 level and beyond are sort of demi or small god, legend. but you can't do that in baldur's gate 3, but you can do in baldur's gate 2, thone of bhaal, I recalled.

From what I remember you can only pick to multiclass after lvl 20... can't actually go beyond lvl 20 but BG2 was a long time ago for me...

[Humble]

Messaggio originale di Makkura:

So, even if the characters get "oh so powerful" spells, and don't get me wrong, they are indeed powerful, but certainly you cannot cast the 24/7? They aren't cantrips, are they?

I recalled, you can cast spell endless 3 to 5 level spells when you are 30 to 40 level in baldur's gate 2, near fight for throne of bhaal at end game. But it's long time. Only downside, those 5 level spell or less is more useless due too many powerful enemies resist spells, thought. You are not fighting reguar common foe, you are fighting legend foe, elite foe, who may godlike as well.

[Overeagerdragon]

Messaggio originale di Makkura:

So, even if the characters get "oh so powerful" spells, and don't get me wrong, they are indeed powerful, but certainly you cannot cast the 24/7? They aren't cantrips, are they?

You kinda missed the point on that one... Cantrips are basically another term for lvl "0" spells... it's stuff so minor in comparison to other spells they don't actually have a place in the level scale... stuff like Speaking with Animals is an example of that... Druids, by their very nature of being able to shapeshift into animals, pretty much gain a semi-passive understanding of the "language of nature"... so them being able to speak to animals is more of an ability more than a spell...

Same goes for producing light and such matter... it's magic manipulation by virtue of being exposed to it so often it becomes second nature...

[Murderhobo]

Messaggio originale di Overeagerdragon:

From what I remember you can only pick to multiclass after lvl 20... can't actually go beyond lvl 20 but BG2 was a long time ago for me...

You can pick multiclass at character creation for demihumans, or at any point with the humans (the dual class thing, worked differently because you didn't get most of the other class abilities until your new class overlevelled the previous one and you could not level your previous class any longer)

You can go over level 20 in the main campaign with the Rogue, and 40 with almost everyone in Throne of Bhaal.

[Murderhobo]

Messaggio originale di Makkura:

So, even if the characters get "oh so powerful" spells, and don't get me wrong, they are indeed powerful, but certainly you cannot cast the 24/7? They aren't cantrips, are they?

With stuff like Wish, or worse yet, miracle it doesn't matter how many times can you cast it, once is already enough to blow up your entire campaign depending on how eloquent the player is.