Warlock 12 or bard10/warlock2?

[meiam]

Started playing thinking I would go warlock 12(hex), but then I realise that they actually only have 2/3 spell slot... Thats pretty rough, especially since most of them are just used to do enhancement stuff.

So I started comparing to going Bard, and it seems like they get most of the stuff warlock get, plus a bunch of extra slot and inspiration. Most of the warlock advantages seems to come out at level 1/2 (so you get hexblade for cha on attack, and good eldritch blast).

My big unknown is, how fast do you level and how long do you stay at max level?

Just looking for outside perspective, thanks

I'd say I'm looking at pro of each side as:

War12:
Earlier extra attack (level 5)
Earlier conjure elemental (and eventually stronger?)
Create undead
+5 dmg on melee at 12
shadow blade/elemental weapon
1 more feats
Armour of hex (is that even good? Hex seems situational)
Hex spectre (no idea if its good, wiki says its broken now)

War2/Bard12:
Way more spell slot
Inspiration
extra short rest
way more skill proficiency
Flourish for extra melee damage

[Farsha]

Bards are busted, always go bard.
Also there are lot of special fun dialogue options for bards.

2 warlock/10 bard for range
2 paladin/10 bard for melee

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

You're basically asking whether you should play a warlock or a bard with a warlock dip.
But you didn't specify what your criteria are for determining which is 'better'.

You don't stay at level 12 very long, in fact it's more likely you won't even reach it before finishing the campaign. Because of this, some people use mods to increase experience gain and to go up to level 20.

The main difference in the classes is that bard gets more magic while hexblade warlock gets better melee damage. Then its a comparison between bardic inpiration vs eldritch invocations. Right now the power gamers are obsessed with hexblade+shadowblade+darkness+devil sight almost always with a dip in paladin for the smites. While that's true, remember that Warlocks are the offensive class while Bards are the defensive class, one of the few classes that can get healing spells.

So if you're wanting more diverse magic, healing spells, support spells, 'solve the puzzle' spells, bardic inspiration, then you'd pick bard. If you want melee damage, eldritch invocations, offense spells, and 'cause problems for the enemy' spells, then you'd pick warlock.

[Farsha]

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:

You're basically asking whether you should play a warlock or a bard with a warlock dip.
But you didn't specify what your criteria are for determining which is 'better'.

You don't stay at level 12 very long, in fact it's more likely you won't even reach it before finishing the campaign. Because of this, some people use mods to increase experience gain and to go up to level 20.

The main difference in the classes is that bard gets more magic while hexblade warlock gets better melee damage. Then its a comparison between bardic inpiration vs eldritch invocations. Right now the power gamers are obsessed with hexblade+shadowblade+darkness+devil sight almost always with a dip in paladin for the smites. While that's true, remember that Warlocks are the offensive class while Bards are the defensive class, one of the few classes that can get healing spells.

So if you're wanting more diverse magic, healing spells, support spells, 'solve the puzzle' spells, bardic inspiration, then you'd pick bard. If you want melee damage, eldritch invocations, offense spells, and 'cause problems for the enemy' spells, then you'd pick warlock.

You can be lvl12 early in act3, so for like 30hrs if you do all the content.
That is quite a lot of time.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:

You don't stay at level 12 very long, in fact it's more likely you won't even reach it before finishing the campaign.

Wait, what?

[hermit0wl]

Originally posted by alanc9:

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:

You don't stay at level 12 very long, in fact it's more likely you won't even reach it before finishing the campaign.

Wait, what?

I second this. How the hells do you not reach lvl 12?

[Molly]

bard8 paladin2 2fighter ,if you are 12
If you just want to cast spell,choice socerer,fire dragon .it has careful ,double and inmediately spell
If you just want to be persuasive, 1or3bard
If you want to avoid shortrest ,lonewolf 5ranger kinght ,gloom stalker 3assasin,2 fighter
(If you are not obsessed with longrest disapeared buff or condition,who don't like short rest and longrest?)

[2LambBuna]

if playing ranged - lore bard 10, warlock 2 for the improvements to eldritch blast (either fiend for being a little tougher, goo for fear on crit or fey for the extra spell)
if playing melee - swords bard 7, hexblade 5 taking pact of the blade so you get the extra attack and medium armour

[Raz]

While Accursed Spectre is bugged, that is a lot of free damage you can accumulate in a battle. Each Spectre teleports next to you to attack whomever you're beefing with once per round. I had a fight where three Spectres were spawned, and all three would jump whomever I was stabbing on my turn, then stab them again on their own turn.

Hex Armor is just a free no spell slot required "NO" to damage/effects 50% of the time.

Flourish is way better as a Ranged use trigger than melee. Complete waste of an Inspiration to burn it on Melee Flourish, and if using it as a Ranged Flourish, it craps all over Eldritch Blast. Hell, Great Weapon Master > Flourish melee by a country mile and Warlocks typically run 2H with Great Weapon Master. Variable 1d10 with 5 uses a

Yeah, Shadowblade is a thing, but unless you're abusing the Resonance Stone, Shadowblade Dual Wield is not stronger than 2H + Great Weapon Master.

Attribute Score is assumed to be 18 Strength, 18 Charisma.

Shadowblade Lv5 + Knife of the Undermountain King with Resonance Stone
[(4d8)+4] x2 + [(4d8)+4] x2 + [(1d6)+6) = (16 ~ 72) + (16 ~ 72) + (7 ~ 12) = (39 ~ 156) Damage per round

Shadowblade Lv5 + Knife of the Undermountain King without Resonance Stone
[(4d8)+4] + [(4d8)+4] + [(1d6)+6) = (8 ~ 36) + (8 ~ 36) + (7 ~ 12) = (23 ~ 84) Damage per round

Sword of Chaos + GWM
[(2d6)+6 +1d4 +10)] + [(2d6)+6 +1d4+10)] = (38 ~ 64) + [Conditional Bonus Action attack] + (19 ~ 32) = (57 ~ 96)

Your other issue is that Shadowblade has such a large floor to ceiling difference your average damage wouldn't be consistently high but that static +10 damage from GWM makes 2H always consistently high, comparatively. Even with the Resonance Stone, the floor of the damage you're dealing is lower than the 2H, shockingly, by almost 20 damage per round if the 2H kills or critical hits that round.

I did not factor in any damage riders, because they all apply to both setups the same unless you have a Sorcerer twin cast Drakethroat Glaive's Elemental Weapon on both your Shadowblade and offhand, which would be the ONLY Elemental Weapon that doesn't debuff your Shadowblade since it's an "Until Long Rest effect" but you wouldn't get an upcasted version of that Spell with a Lv5 Elemental Weapon being a 2d4 Element damage added for 10 turns or Concentration ends. Second it ends, though, Shadowblade goes down to a 2d8 until recast (there is a Mod.Io you can download that fixes this).

Now, if we're talking Tactician (and below), that throws all that damage fudging outta the window 'cause you can go 6 Warlock 6 Bard or 5 Warlock 7 Bard (depends on if you really want those 4th level spells) and get four attacks a round in. It's still lower damage than the ceiling of Resonance Stone + Shadow Blade, but it curb stomps the ever living babyface outta it's floor and average.

Yeah, you don't get Accursed Spectre as a 5th level Hexblade, but you still have a 20% chance to apply Hex Curse to anyone you smack giving you a for -1 to score a critical hit on dice rolls. Still worth it I say.

[Raz]

Originally posted by 2LambBuna:

if playing ranged - lore bard 10, warlock 2 for the improvements to eldritch blast (either fiend for being a little tougher, goo for fear on crit or fey for the extra spell)
if playing melee - swords bard 7, hexblade 5 taking pact of the blade so you get the extra attack and medium armour

Huh? Ranged, Sword Bard is still better? What does Lore Bard get for Ranged that beats Sword Bard shooting a Longbow 4x a turn with Sharpshooter or 5x with Hand Crossbows not including Haste, Bloodlust, or Nine Finger's crackcocaine?

[2LambBuna]

Originally posted by Raz:

Originally posted by 2LambBuna:

if playing ranged - lore bard 10, warlock 2 for the improvements to eldritch blast (either fiend for being a little tougher, goo for fear on crit or fey for the extra spell)
if playing melee - swords bard 7, hexblade 5 taking pact of the blade so you get the extra attack and medium armour

Huh? Ranged, Sword Bard is still better? What does Lore Bard get for Ranged that beats Sword Bard shooting a Longbow 4x a turn with Sharpshooter or 5x with Hand Crossbows not including Haste, Bloodlust, or Nine Finger's crackcocaine?

more spells including powerful AOEs like fireball and spirit guardians at level 6. plus lore has the best bard dice effect for the whole party. If going for a bow build, i'd go 1 level in hexblade and 1 level in fighter plus 10 swords.

[kaibr]

Having just finished the game as a Hexblade Warlock, I have to say 12 Warlock was a (eldritch)blast.

[meiam]

Originally posted by 2LambBuna:

if playing ranged - lore bard 10, warlock 2 for the improvements to eldritch blast (either fiend for being a little tougher, goo for fear on crit or fey for the extra spell)
if playing melee - swords bard 7, hexblade 5 taking pact of the blade so you get the extra attack and medium armour

Oh pact blade extra attack stack with sword bard extra attack? Thats... kinda weird. I'm not playing honor mode but I'll ignore that cause that really seems to not be supposed to happen.

Originally posted by Raz:

While Accursed Spectre is bugged, that is a lot of free damage you can accumulate in a battle. Each Spectre teleports next to you to attack whomever you're beefing with once per round. I had a fight where three Spectres were spawned, and all three would jump whomever I was stabbing on my turn, then stab them again on their own turn.

Hex Armor is just a free no spell slot required "NO" to damage/effects 50% of the time.

Flourish is way better as a Ranged use trigger than melee. Complete waste of an Inspiration to burn it on Melee Flourish, and if using it as a Ranged Flourish, it craps all over Eldritch Blast. Hell, Great Weapon Master > Flourish melee by a country mile and Warlocks typically run 2H with Great Weapon Master. Variable 1d10 with 5 uses a

Yeah, Shadowblade is a thing, but unless you're abusing the Resonance Stone, Shadowblade Dual Wield is not stronger than 2H + Great Weapon Master.

Attribute Score is assumed to be 18 Strength, 18 Charisma.

Shadowblade Lv5 + Knife of the Undermountain King with Resonance Stone
[(4d8)+4] x2 + [(4d8)+4] x2 + [(1d6)+6) = (16 ~ 72) + (16 ~ 72) + (7 ~ 12) = (39 ~ 156) Damage per round

Shadowblade Lv5 + Knife of the Undermountain King without Resonance Stone
[(4d8)+4] + [(4d8)+4] + [(1d6)+6) = (8 ~ 36) + (8 ~ 36) + (7 ~ 12) = (23 ~ 84) Damage per round

Sword of Chaos + GWM
[(2d6)+6 +1d4 +10)] + [(2d6)+6 +1d4+10)] = (38 ~ 64) + [Conditional Bonus Action attack] + (19 ~ 32) = (57 ~ 96)

Your other issue is that Shadowblade has such a large floor to ceiling difference your average damage wouldn't be consistently high but that static +10 damage from GWM makes 2H always consistently high, comparatively. Even with the Resonance Stone, the floor of the damage you're dealing is lower than the 2H, shockingly, by almost 20 damage per round if the 2H kills or critical hits that round.

I did not factor in any damage riders, because they all apply to both setups the same unless you have a Sorcerer twin cast Drakethroat Glaive's Elemental Weapon on both your Shadowblade and offhand, which would be the ONLY Elemental Weapon that doesn't debuff your Shadowblade since it's an "Until Long Rest effect" but you wouldn't get an upcasted version of that Spell with a Lv5 Elemental Weapon being a 2d4 Element damage added for 10 turns or Concentration ends. Second it ends, though, Shadowblade goes down to a 2d8 until recast (there is a Mod.Io you can download that fixes this).

Now, if we're talking Tactician (and below), that throws all that damage fudging outta the window 'cause you can go 6 Warlock 6 Bard or 5 Warlock 7 Bard (depends on if you really want those 4th level spells) and get four attacks a round in. It's still lower damage than the ceiling of Resonance Stone + Shadow Blade, but it curb stomps the ever living babyface outta it's floor and average.

Yeah, you don't get Accursed Spectre as a 5th level Hexblade, but you still have a 20% chance to apply Hex Curse to anyone you smack giving you a for -1 to score a critical hit on dice rolls. Still worth it I say.

Is all in really worth it? Usually in CPRPG at higher level, hitting target is far more complicated than damaging them, trading attack role (which typically have less bonus) for damage roll (which typically have a lot of bonus/rider) is rarely worth it, but I never used DnD 5e.

[FunkyMonkey]

If you want to focus on spell casting, go Warlock 2 / Bard 10. Warlocks are closer to Rangers than people think. Warlock is a ranged attack specialist, unless you go Pact of the Blade. Warlocks should use their spell slots only once, maybe twice per fight if it's critical. They are a ranged attacker at their core, IMO.

[Raz]

Originally posted by meiam:

Is all in really worth it? Usually in CPRPG at higher level, hitting target is far more complicated than damaging them, trading attack role (which typically have less bonus) for damage roll (which typically have a lot of bonus/rider) is rarely worth it, but I never used DnD 5e.

It is too easy to get around the -5 penalty to attack rolls, especially by Act 3 where the numbers are reflective of. There is a Mephit that will have his Stone Elemental wife make a statue of your character that gives them permanent Bless. Mask of Soul Perception for another +2 to attack rolls and damage. Risky Ring for Advantage on all attack rolls.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Yes, absolutely go Bardlock 10/2 - you can pick up HoH as a Bard, and get either Agonizing/Repelling Blast or Repelling Blast/Devil's Sight (for utility of shoving fools back into HoH), plus your Song of Rest gives you two extra spell sluts per day.