Too many saving throws

[Vim]

It really hurts that pretty much any spell that isn't a direct damage spell gets so many saving throws against it. It feels almost pointless to even try to do something interesting with magic.

Most attacks that deal damage only give the target a single chance to avoid that damage, either through a saving throw or their AC to avoid being hit, but with almost all non-persistent effects, the odds of it doing anything is so small it's ultimately a waste of a spell slot.

It's true that if a fighter misses it's attack, the target takes no damage, therefore it's also likely to do nothing, but fighters can attack an infinite number of times, and usually more than once per round.

As a ranger, if you want to cast something like Ensnaring strike, the target first gets to try to save to avoid it (assuming you hit), then on their turn, gets to immediately try to save again, meaning that before it's their turn to move, they already had 2 chances to prevent the effect. It's like they are rolling with advantage.

This goes for every other effect like this, such as charm person/animal, hold person, etc. The target has 2 full chances to avoid it's effect before it's even their turn to act. This of course means it's incredibly unlikely that their turn will be impeded in the slightest.

How do you all deal with this? If the solution is "just take damage spells" that's a really boring solution. I miss powerful non-direct damage magic...

[FunkyMonkey]

The thing with control spells is that you need to plan for them more than you need to with damage spells. For example ensnaring strike. Yes, you need to succeed with your attack roll and then the enemy needs to fail their save. But you still did full damage and used a spell slot for the chance to immobilize the target. And if the enemy fails their save, they are stuck. The thing is you need to have a plan. If they fail, what then? Do you have allies that can take advantage of them being ensnared before they even get a turn?

And there are control spells that are more powerful. Command is a good example. If it lands, they miss their turn. Just 1 turn but still, it's guaranteed. And then there is Hypnotic pattern that only gives 1 save and lasts for multiple turns. Heat metal makes the enemy either drop their weapon or gives you an option to damage them every turn and they have disadvantage on attack rolls. Banishment sends enemies to shadow realm for multiple turns. Not to mention all the spells that limit movement speed, blind enemies, control space.... There are options but hard control is hard to come by, pun intended.

[belgix]

The problem with that is, from a former DM perspective, if it work one way it shall work both ways. Consequences ... I don't want you to complain is your opponent cast a fireball at you and you have to deal with all the damage of it. Sure shot spells like magic missile are still very useful at higher levels, quite often better than disintegrate most of the time. W/o saves, just think how a beholder will be almost an unkillable monster. Everything will now become an initiative battle.

[causality]

Originally posted by Vim:

This goes for every other effect like this, such as charm person/animal, hold person, etc. The target has 2 full chances to avoid it's effect before it's even their turn to act. This of course means it's incredibly unlikely that their turn will be impeded in the slightest.

They get +2 to saves on honour and tactician too, definitely made me approach some fights differently in the early game before you get access to more spell save dc items.

[Mike Garrison]

It's D&D. They call these "suck or save" spells. And if they didn't have saving throws, then *you* would be the one getting killed with them.

The solution to the problem you described is to get your spellsave DC higher. The higher it is, the harder to save against. By the end of the game, my enchantment wizard was pretty much able to "hold person" two people at once with 95% chance for each of them (only a critical 20 would save them).

[Zyenu]

Originally posted by Vim:

It really hurts that pretty much any spell that isn't a direct damage spell gets so many saving throws against it. It feels almost pointless to even try to do something interesting with magic.

Most attacks that deal damage only give the target a single chance to avoid that damage, either through a saving throw or their AC to avoid being hit, but with almost all non-persistent effects, the odds of it doing anything is so small it's ultimately a waste of a spell slot.

It's true that if a fighter misses it's attack, the target takes no damage, therefore it's also likely to do nothing, but fighters can attack an infinite number of times, and usually more than once per round.

As a ranger, if you want to cast something like Ensnaring strike, the target first gets to try to save to avoid it (assuming you hit), then on their turn, gets to immediately try to save again, meaning that before it's their turn to move, they already had 2 chances to prevent the effect. It's like they are rolling with advantage.

This goes for every other effect like this, such as charm person/animal, hold person, etc. The target has 2 full chances to avoid it's effect before it's even their turn to act. This of course means it's incredibly unlikely that their turn will be impeded in the slightest.

How do you all deal with this? If the solution is "just take damage spells" that's a really boring solution. I miss powerful non-direct damage magic...

The thing is magic can shut down an encounter with 1 spell, which is what you should go for in honor mode, example hypnotic patern, hold monster, upcast hold person, etc...It is fair to have a chance to avoid that the key to making this as successfull as possible for you is to have a high modifier to the spell example CHA for warlocks or WIS for clerics this will increase the DC saving throw of your spell. There are items in the game (mainly staffs and some robes) that improve your spell saving throw DC, keep a look out for those.
Try to crowd control your fights and you will see how much better they go, just paralise your main target and hit it with your fighter, auto crits from a 2 handed weapon are just fun

[Raz]

Increase your Spell Save DC through gear, for one. Higher Spell Save DC = easier to land your effects, and harder for enemies to break out of them. For a second point; Martials are terrible at being reliable as Crowd Control because they usually aren't going to wear too much gear that give them Spell Save DC in the first place, and they normally do not increase their Spell Casting stat that high neither. A lot of that is on Mage primary gear.

Now, not to say a Martial cannot wear it, they definitely can, and you definitely can get them to up them ability to control the field with it, but it does level out by reducing their damage somewhat.

Case and point, giving a Martial the Gloves of Battlemage will increase their Spell Save DC by +1 per stack of Arcane Acuity which they get two stacks per attack made with a melee spell (Booming Blade, Shadowblade, any of the Smites)

[Aranador]

Yes a fighter gets infinite attacks. And they will need to use several to inflict the status condition 'dead'. The wizard can, barring a saving throw' inflict the condition' may as well be dead' in one action, potentially to many enemies. It is a much more volatile, high risk high reward gamble, but that's the game. Different options, and comparing melee to spell casting is disingenuous because of how different they are.

[Chaosolous]

Command is OP.

[Vim]

To be fair, I'm not calling for Saving Throws to auto-fail, I just think it should be adjusted to not give a new save every round. Spell save DC is all well and good, but there are not many ways I'm aware of that increases this. There may be items later in the game, I'm not sure, but aside from your primary spell attribute, which is limited to 17 (+3) until level 4 at the earliest.

I think spell saves should be rolled on the casters turn if anything, so that you were guaranteed to at least get 1 full turn of effect before the target gets another chance to save. If you cast hold person on an enemy that has it's turn directly after the spellcaster, they get to roll save twice and if either one succeeds, which it almost always does, then you might as well just cast something that will do damage if it succeeds.

[Farsha]

There are several ways how to stack spell DC save mainly through gear.
And it’s the stongest playstyle in the game.
Had 90% chance to hold Monster on Rafael.
Guy did not move for the whole fight and ate 1crit after another.

But it takes some time to get going and looking for the right gear.

Control spells shine in the late game.
In act1 when you don’t have the stats and gear they work only on mosters that have clear weakness in some stat.

[JuX]

Your issue isn't so straight forward.

For example. "Hold person" makes attacks against the target critical hits. And pending on your initiative roll, 0-3 of your party members (+minions) are able to do attacks on target before the end of turn saving roll attempt.

Then there is upcasting which can make low level spell very potent. Which is very evident if you have necromancer in act III with it's staff to utilize life essence to cast max upcast necromancer spells like blindness without loosing a spell.

Ensnare also counts as standard attack so it has practical use with extra attack. Since you can ensnare target for advantage on your follow up shot and make better use of sharpshooter feat for extra 10 damage and it's accuracy penalty.

Not to mention spells have different saving throw requirements, so inspecting enemy attributes can help you utilize spells they have harder time with saving throws.

[You Touched My Tralala]

This type of problems do not last long. I think halfway Act 2 spells become too OP cause they proc almost all the time. Almost as OP as archers are LOL

[Raz]

Originally posted by Vim:

To be fair, I'm not calling for Saving Throws to auto-fail, I just think it should be adjusted to not give a new save every round.

You, truly, have no idea what you're asking for. As someone else pointed out earlier, what you can dish out, the enemies can do right back to you. Many CC Spells/Effects last 10 whole rounds. 3 being some of the lowest. Take Crown of Madness, that is 10 rounds of an enemy forcing your companion(s) to attack each other for 10 rounds. No control, no chance to break out of it other than attacking the enemy Concentrating on the spell, if you even can because your ally is now casting more crowd control spells on the group.

I've had an ally get mind ****ed again to the squad to turn around and use Confusion on the area which further lead to my team being out of my control and if not for my Paladin passing the check on her turn, would have completely wiped.

Spell save DC is all well and good, but there are not many ways I'm aware of that increases this. There may be items later in the game, I'm not sure, but aside from your primary spell attribute, which is limited to 17 (+3) until level 4 at the earliest.

In Act 1 there is multiple gear pieces that give Spell Save DC.

Ritual Dagger gives a 1d4 to all Attack Rolls (including Spells with Attack Rolls)
Melf's First Staff gives a +1 to Spell Save DC and Attack Rolls
The Protecty Sparkwall gives +1 Spell Save DC
Elixir of Battlemage Power gives +2 ~ +3 Spell Save DC (starts showing up around Lv6, can get Lv8 in Act 1)
The Shadespell Circlet +1 Spell Save DC while in shade

[Vim]

Originally posted by Raz:

You, truly, have no idea what you're asking for. As someone else pointed out earlier, what you can dish out, the enemies can do right back to you. Many CC Spells/Effects last 10 whole rounds. 3 being some of the lowest. Take Crown of Madness, that is 10 rounds of an enemy forcing your companion(s) to attack each other for 10 rounds. No control, no chance to break out of it other than attacking the enemy Concentrating on the spell, if you even can because your ally is now casting more crowd control spells on the group.

Why do you say that? The game has dispel magic, it has counterspell, and in both OG Bg1-2, and in 3rd edition, this was the way of things, and it absolutely worked. And who says it has to stay 10 rounds? Why not 1, 2 or 3 depending on spell? I just think it's a problem that has been done better, and can be done better.
Granted, there was rarely anything as frustrating in BG1-2 then getting Horror'ed, or Confusion'ed, but at least magic felt really cool that way. It's why having immunity to mind controlling effects on items, and a dispel magic wand on said character handy was such a must. And it could be again.

Originally posted by Raz:

In Act 1 there is multiple gear pieces that give Spell Save DC.

Ritual Dagger gives a 1d4 to all Attack Rolls (including Spells with Attack Rolls)
Melf's First Staff gives a +1 to Spell Save DC and Attack Rolls
The Protecty Sparkwall gives +1 Spell Save DC
Elixir of Battlemage Power gives +2 ~ +3 Spell Save DC (starts showing up around Lv6, can get Lv8 in Act 1)
The Shadespell Circlet +1 Spell Save DC while in shade

This is a very useful list, thank you. Granted most of these are a bit deep into Act 1, and some overlap (staffs), but this will prove very useful if I want to actually give an enchanter a serious try. Though with how rare certain materials are, I dont know if an elixir is a realistic long-term solution. Though certainly helpful for some fights.

[Coldhands]

Originally posted by Vim:

It really hurts that pretty much any spell that isn't a direct damage spell gets so many saving throws against it. It feels almost pointless to even try to do something interesting with magic.

That's an issue with 5e D&D in general. It helps the players not be obliterated by caster enemies, but it also leads to a lot of feel-bads in the players' spellcasting. Except, at the table, the DM can help the party out by fudging a role or two, or letting them RP/plan their way into situations where their spells will 'just work'. Can't really get that kind of judgement call from a video game.

The dark secret of CRPGs is that tabletop rule sets don't actually make good video game rule sets, and BG3's spell casting is an example of why.